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Game result (chess) C. Javier, 2253 A. Duttagupta, 2250 1/2-1/2 See game 145798 |
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Per Lea (2006-04-08 23:03:27)
Vacations
In this modern world, not even travelling abroad will stop you from being able to play: you will probably find an internet cafe near by. Or you may have internet access in your hotel room, or if you visit business colleagues, they will probably give you access to a PC. Too bad if you're TOO dependent on Fritz, of course, but....
Hannes Rada (2006-04-09 00:43:50)
Travel destinations
>In this modern world, not even > travelling abroad will stop you from > being able to play: you will > probably find an internet cafe near > Or you may have internet access in > your hotel room, or if you visit > business colleagues, they will > probably give you access to a PC. > Too bad if you're TOO dependent on > Fritz, of course, but.... Normally I spend my holiday far away from the so called civiliations. Destinations like Papua New Guinea, Micronesia or Ethiopia are my favorite places. So there is no chance for communications and also no interest for playing chess. In 2 weeks I am heading to Vanuatu .....
Glen D. Shields (2006-04-25 16:48:28)
Another Opinion
I have mixed feelings on 'conditional" moves. I agree they save time, but they also can be irritating. Depends how they're sent and who sends them.
We all have those opponents who play whatever Fritz plays. When one gets in a rather simple series of moves, those opponents like to run out a string of 3 or 4 conditionals in a row. Opponents like that are like leeches. You can't get them off your skin without yanking them off and eradicating them :)
Time saving versus irritation. Considering the options, I vote for time saving. The faster I can get rid of Fritz opponents, the happier I am.
Just another opinion :)
Graham Cridland (2006-04-25 17:22:16)
Hmm.
Well, I see your point (I have an opponent like that) but what you're really objecting to is their failure to use their time, not conditional moves (or even fritz). And I can't imagine that forcing people to use their time will be popular. Just have to NOT send the move back right away, sit down at the board, and figure out where Fritz goes wrong. Our German friend isn't all knowing (especially at the 14-16 ply people only give him much of the time). So you should generally win those games.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-04 20:15:35)
8-game matches
John... ??? :)
Vladimir Kramnik - Peter Leko (match for WCH classical title)
Vladimir Kramnik - Deep Fritz...
Of course it is desired... Who will remember the names of the players in the last ICCF final tournament ? Even if ICCF doesn't use this format, and (as you say) serious CC players didn't have the opportunity to play such tournament, knockout format is still desired.
My first idea was a pure enormous knockout tournament, but it's obviously not possible (too much rounds, a time problem), that's why I thought about this combined system.
Now look at the chess world : Many players don't understand why FIDE progressively reduces the number of games and time controls in WCH matches. It is the main reason why FIDE world champion title looses value. Not hard / accurate, not spectacular enough !! ..
What many players (me, at least :)) expect is a classical world championship with a big final match. You may have noticed that FICGS champion will have the opportunity to defend his title in a... 24 games match against his challenger... (!!) That's real fight, that's real challenge and that's what I expect to see from a championship, a big opposition between 2 players, and not a round-robin more or less aleatory, with too much names, not understandable for the most.
Now, as we said on TCCMB : FICGS is not "official" matter, chess is for fun here, but chess must be a show and I'm convinced it is relevant in correspondence chess too. We'll see that ;)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-07-22 18:31:31)
What future for correspondence chess ?
You may have noticed this "grave" question on the home page... :)
---------
Are draws and chess engines killing chess game, are the level and play simply standardized by Deep Fritz and Rybka... Is the extraordinary performance by Christophe Léotard at XIX th. ICCF correspondence chess world championship 'chancy', a statistical happening, or is there a place yet for human play in modern correspondence chess ?
"I really believe that Go is destined to take the place of Chess as the leading intellectual game of the Occident, just as it has reigned supreme in the Orient for some four thousand years." (Edward Lasker, international chess master)
"... {it is} something unearthly... if there are sentient beings on other planets, then they play go." (Emanuel Lasker, chess world champion)
It had been said that Chess 960 would replace Chess too. I don't think so...
Any predictions ?
Glen D. Shields (2006-07-24 17:04:52)
Thanks Thibault
Thanks Thibault for the response.
I definitely concur that today's correspondence chess is different than 40 years ago. The two biggest things I miss about today's CC are the 1) blunders and 2) open tournaments. I remember the excitement of getting a postcard and rushing to check my opponent's move. Blunders weren't common, but they occured. Now they're non-existant. Blunders made for great lore!
Why no more open tournaments? Took me 40 years to get my rating where it's at. I'm not a top player, but what I've earned, I've earned mostly the "old fashioned" way. I avoid open tournaments to avoid losing to low rated players who just learned the moves, but because they have a a high powered muti-processor running Deep Fritz they can knock me down a hundred points. I miss chatting with beginners, teaching them the ins and outs of CC. Oh well :)
You mentioned the top CC players winning and then not sticking with the game because winning is too hard due to chess engines. Is the drop out rate at the WC level any different than it was in the past? Berliner won and dropped out 40 years ago. Palciauskas won 30 years ago and then he dropped out. Chess engines were not a factor when they won. I don't think top players drop out because of engines, but because it is too hard to keep a competitive edge to play at a top level for any length of time. Good results are a combination of talent, hard work and good fortune. Keeping all three together for any length of time is a HUGE endeavor.
Personally I think a bigger threat to CC burn-out is not chess engines, but chess servers. Servers make CC too easy. Today's CC today is like Bill Murray in "Ground Hog Day." You wake up to an inbox full of chess moves. You work all day/night replying. Then you wake up the following day to moves from the same people and do it all again. There are no week long breaks breaks between games like in the postcard days. Server chess is burning out everyone, not just the top players. The progressive server owners will need to address this issue someday.
Sooooo ... what's the bottomline for me? I liked the old days better, but the old days are gone. Chess engines are here to stay. Progress is part of life. I embrace progress and am determined to enjoy it. I get my thrills by learning about chess engines and their weaknesses. That gives me an edge and keeps the game fresh. But then that's me :)
Lionel Vidal (2006-09-09 16:39:44)
Correspondence backgammon?
Where would be the fun? I mean, a program like Jellyfish could give me in a few hours by simulation the best move in a probability sense without any effort. Of course I can still play aginst the odds, but what would be the point to play inferior moves in the long run? (of course you can play, say in a casino, knowing you will loose in the long run and still have fun (I don't but that's only me), but in a strategic game?)
Compare to chess: an engine, say Fritz, can give what its evaluation function marks as the best move... but I can still play another one, because I see a better plan, or because I set up an ending I know I will draw (or win :-)... in short the proposed move may not be the best one, and I still have to make a choice... In other words, I may still have the illusion I have a chance :-)
The cases where Jellyfish will not give the *tried* and *validated* best moves are very rare with today computers... so where would be the fun being a button-man or being crushed in the long run by such one?
Benjamin Aldag (2006-09-30 15:57:58)
e4-Line !
The e4-Line is the only line, which gives white the possibility of an clear advantage. All other lines are really bad for white. The point of this opening is, to have with the black color good knights versus a bad bishop-pair of white. Roman Dzindzihasvili is the founder of this Defense and i think, "Beefeater" is not the right name. I call it "Dzindzi-Indian-Defense". There are many interesting lines and some of them, transpose the game to other openings (Pirc, Sicilian-Dragon, Kings-Indian etc.). The move 5...f5 was played to prevent black of 6.e4, but 6.e4! is the best move, white can play. I've played last year in Litomysl in a Simultan versus GM Sergey Movsesian this "Dzindzi-Indian-Defense". Sergey played 6.h4?! and after 15 moves, we draw the game. The Dzindzi-Indian-Defense is an easy to learn opening and i've got good results with it in many tourneys. Last time i've saw this Defense at the Chess-Olympic, played by players around 2400-2500. 6.e4! is the best move, but many many players don't know it and the possibility for black, to get a good result in a game is very high. I can say, i know all variations about this opening and this thematic tournament will be my first tourney here, where i will not use computer-assistence. Its funny to see, that an Engine (Rybka,Fritz etc.) dont understand the ideas behind this defense and without an opening-book, engines dont see that 6.e4! is the only way, to get an advantage.
I luv Dzindzi-Indian-Defense
Benny
Thibault de Vassal (2006-10-02 18:01:18)
Rybka vs. Chessbase engines
Are there correspondence chess players who use Rybka here ? .. is it a better analysis tool than his well-known rivals (Deep Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs...) ?
A thread about chess engines could be interesting : How to use chess engines in correspondence chess, which ones (when & why), their weaknesses.....
For sure many players don't want to tell their opponents their way of 'think' :) .. but it could be interesting to make this kind of comparison...
Thibault de Vassal (2006-10-04 16:21:00)
Danailov accuses Kramnik of using Fritz9
The manager of Topalov (Silvio Danailov) now accuses Kramnik of cheating, using Fritz 9.
Here are his statistics :
Game 1 :
From 75 moves: After move 12, from 65 remaining moves 41 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (63% of matches)
Game 2 :
From 63 moves: After move 17, from 46 remaining moves 40 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (87% of matches)
Game 3 :
From 38 moves: After move 10, from 46 remaining moves 40 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (87% of matches)
Game 4 :
From 54 moves: After move 14, from 40 remaining moves 30 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (75% of matches)
Game 6 :
From 31 moves: After move 13, from 18 remaining moves 14 moves match with the first line of Fritz 9. (78% of matches)
Out of 5 games, 78% of Vladimir Kramnik’s moves would match with the first line of Fritz 9.
Seems to be a lot but is it enough ? (no IMO, and it simply doesn't mean anything at all...)
Furthermore, it seems to be very hard to prove, as the "first line" of Fritz 9 depends on many parameters... It's probably easy to obtain this result on demand, or to say at a 2800 level, if it doesn't match with Fritz moves, that it matches with Shredder, Junior or Hydra or... :(
The only conclusion is Kramnik's style is closer to Fritz than other engines..
(what a scoop...)
Topalov's team has probably no other choice now than to attack & attack until death... This is clearly psychological attack, this match could end really dirty :/
I think these statistics are really too conclusive so that it's realistic ! .. Kramnik is not stupid : There's no need to play Fritz first line to win against Topalov (and finally be accused of using Fritz 9), and it's certainly not the best way to win either...
Elmer Valderrama (2006-10-04 21:44:39)
Danailov accuses Kramnik of using Fritz9
In my view, the best proof of computer use is the number of missed oportunities rather than the number of coincidences, which can be manipulated as pointed by Thibault. Thus, an average player misses 80 to 90% (99% in the worst cases ) a Master - 30-40%, a GM 10 to 20%. With the extreme -no missed oportunities we have those reported cases of cheating in Tournaments by average players So the suspictions would be worth something if they are accompanied by the report of (not)missed oportunities, otherwise the moves are in the usual coincidence range.
Elmer Valderrama (2006-10-04 22:36:44)
Toga
Since everyone is being honest in this thread here is my confession..
Usually I use latest Toga, I bought Rybka 1.2 series, but I've found it is not better than Toga, especially if run in a slow computer (I still use a AMD +1600, with Windows 98: I know I should buy a better computer but this one is already a recent "upgrade" from a Pentium 700Mhz running Fritz 8 ;) and I dont want to fall in the endless (and costly) chain of keeping -up-to-date just to get a few more ELO points ;)
Sometimes I test the positions with other engines (Fritz 8, Schredder 8, free Fruit) just to prove how right was Toga in the initial evaluation. In those rare but happy occasions when I make my own input is simply to give an idea of where should the engine "think". When things go well, after some point, it is just a matter of setting the engines on my opponents, they would finish the job.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-10-09 11:19:53)
UCI / Winboard engine
Hello Yannick.
Maybe you could try a free chess engine like Crafty (quite strong already, also running on Chessbase / Fritz interface), GNUchess, Arasan, Ghost or any engine running on Winboard / Arena free interfaces...
See a list of chess engines here :
http://www.ficgs.com/wiki_en-chess_engines.html
A well-known french speaking website about computer chess :
http://perso.orange.fr/lefouduroi/computerchess.htm
Actually it's probably very hard not to be influenced by chess engines suggestions, but the point is to understand, then find better moves...
All depends on the level you want the engine to play. There are hundred of engines to download...
Rodrigo Jaroszewski (2006-10-10 18:28:43)
Fritz et al.
You can try Fritz and the like (Shredder, etc.), as they come with a chess coach that give small tips like "I don't think you should put your Queen there." I just don't remember which playing modes and under which conditions you can use that without displaying the engine thinking lines, but it's really nifty.
Wolfgang Utesch (2006-10-21 13:03:07)
Game 2222
I think, only Fritz x has a fundamental problem with this position, for nearly all other engines is the solution only a question of time - some find it faster than other.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-10-26 18:33:58)
Reveal your software
Actually I wouldn't say that any engine vs. engine games are played here.
(or at ICCF, IECG ...)
This kind of statistics may be relevant on Playchess server or FICS [Free Internet Chess Server] at fast time controls where human can't help much, not in correspondence chess. That's obvious anyway that most players above 2000-2200 elo use chess engines, but games are not 100% engines, or any particular engine for sure...
I'm convinced Fritz or Shredder 'alone' wouldn't reach 2200.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-10-28 15:59:37)
Chess quizz :-)
I see the interview (1) was also published on Chessbase news..
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3454
Some other questions...
3/ Will Kasparov return at competitive chess ?
4/ Will Kramnik defend his new FIDE title ?
5/ How many years Kirsan Iljumzhinov will still remain FIDE president ?
6/ Will Fritz 10 beat Kramnik ??
7/ Will chess be solved by a super computer in the next 200 years ?
8/ Who will win the 1st FICGS world championship ? :)
... my answers :
2/ Boris Spassky
3/ Yes !
4/ No
5/ 8 years
6/ No
7/ No
8/ Joker :)
John Acre (2006-10-30 22:09:15)
lowball
I absolutely use an engine. The permitted use of engines is the only reason I'm at this site to begin with..... ........... ........... ........... ............. .............. ........... Engine assisted games can be a great study tool, if used correctly. I analyze each position to the best of my ability, record my candidate moves. Select one, record it, and then feed the position into Fritz to see how it evaluates the position......... ........... ............ ............. ........... ............. ............... ............. If my move is in the same ballpark, I make my selected move, I feel fricking great, and I await my opponent's reply. If my move is substantially inferior to Fritz's selection, I try to figure out why, and then I play Fritz's move. This way, not only do I get to understand the positions rising out of my chosen opening in a depth I could otherwise never approach without professional guidance, but each step of the way, I learn to play the next move's position as if the strongest move had been played............. ............ ........... ............. ............ ........... ........... .......... .......... If an opponent blunders in a big way, I mostly let Fritz finish him off, because the game is of no study value to me beyond that point. I don't care what my rating is, except that it be at a number where I can join a variety of rated tournaments (to face a variety of opposition). I don't play at this site to win, or to lose. I play here to get as close as a ~1600 OTB player like me can get to understanding the objective truth of the game............ ........... ........... ........... ........... ............. ............ ........ Sorry if that upsets anybody, but that's the whole reason I'm here. The community isn't big enough to have much independent value as a non-engine-assisted place to play correspondence matches. And why would one bother? There are a million of those places on the web. This place, however, is a one-of-a-kind goldmine. If engine play were to dry up or be outlawed here, what would be the point?....... ........... .......... ........ ........... ......... ........ ........... ............ .......... Anyway, to answer, from my viewpoint, another question asked in this thread, I'm currently self-rated at 1500 for this site. I'm playing in tournaments at about that level, and am admittedly using Fritz 9. My record, out of 20 or so games, looks like it's going to be about 4 wins, 6 losses, and 10 draws......... ............ ........... ............ ............ ............ ........... ............. ...... Only two of those wins are going to be miniatures, and both of those against the same guy. So playing with engine-assisted strength of around 2500 on my slow-ish machine, I'm going to score around 45%, with about 17 out of 18 opponents playing at or above my machine-enhanced strength............... ........... ............. ............ ........ ............ ........... People guessing 50% of users here use engines are lowballing, bigtime. I estimate around 95%. And I have no problem saying that I'm one of them.
Thibault de Vassal (2006-11-14 16:47:18)
Kramnik vs. Deep Fritz, 2006
In less than 2 weeks from now, classical & FIDE world champion Vladimir Kramnik will play the best (at least most famous) chess program Deep Fritz 10 !
From november 25 to december 5, 2006 at the Federal Art Hall in Bonn. One million US dollars for Kramnik if he defeats Deep Fritz, half this amount otherwise...
We did not forget the previous match in Bahrain (2002), that ended with a 3-3 score.
Do you feel Fritz improved enough to beat a player like Kramnik, who most probably improved his play too... Will Kramnik play rather different openings than in his match against Topalov ? .. Anyway it should be an interesting match to follow.
A few links :
http://www.kramnik.com/eng/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=95
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2947
Thibault de Vassal (2006-11-21 21:32:51)
Kramnik vs. Deep Fritz
I predict 3.5 - 2.5 in favour of Kramnik :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-11-24 01:16:50)
dreams are not reality...
Elmer, let me dream a few days more, please :)
If the match is not 'arranged', everything can happen. I'm sure Kramnik can win 1 game or 2, and draw the other ones...
Chess engines have nothing more to prove, a win for Kramnik would give new interest for the match Kramnik vs. Fritz 12, a draw would be a non-event and a loss for Kramnik would be interpreted as "Chess is completely dead"... Not so good for Chessbase... Choose.
But finally, if Bobby was right ? :) .. (sure not)
Wayne Lowrance (2006-11-24 06:44:37)
Kramnik vs. Deep Fritz, 2006
My two cents. I have little interest in this match. It is no longer any doubt wheather the programs are stronger than the Human. The playing field for this match is not even,. Kramnik has secured far too much of an advantage based on the rules of the match. He will play just well enough to secure a draw, or even perhaps push to a 31/2-21/2 win. After all gotta keep up the suspense for the next big payday cow. Anyways Fritz is not the strongest Engine I believe Human-Program matches should be played without handicap for the program. Then we know who is champs. so now in my view I already know. Wayne
Marc Lacrosse (2006-11-24 09:27:56)
completely unfair and thus impredictible
The fact that the match conditions have been arranged on such unfair rules has two immediate consequences :
- we already know for sure that Kramnik himself is sure that he could not succeed on a more fair ground
- final result is unpredictible and probably already arranged beforehand
Marc
By the way the rules are really incredible.
Just an example : not only does Kramnik have the final opening book of Fritz at home for preparation, but moreover he will have the right to see Fritz's opening book _during_ the games with the various moves that could be played by the engne according to the player's intended move, together with the associated statistics. so in the unfortunate case where Kramnik could not remember is home killer preparation he will have the various choices presented to his eyes during play. Pretty incredible !
and there are quite a dozen rules like that ... (including the right for Kramnik only to call for an adjournement with subsequent overnight computer- or fellow-GM-assisted analysis ...)
For those who would like to have a look the complete rules are on Susan Polger's blog : http://www.susanpolgar.blogspot.com/
Thibault de Vassal (2006-11-26 12:51:03)
Game 1
Vladimir Kramnik - Deep Fritz
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 dxc4 5.Qa4+ Nbd7 6.Qxc4 a6 7.Qd3 c5 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.Nf3 0-0 10.0-0 Qe7 11.Nc3 b6 12.Ne4 Nxe4 13.Qxe4 Nf6 14.Qh4 Bb7 15.Bg5 Rfd8 16.Bxf6 Qxf6 17.Qxf6 gxf6 18.Rfd1 Kf8 19.Ne1 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 f5 21.Rxd8+ Rxd8 22.Nd3 Bd4 23.Rc1 e5 24.Rc2 Rd5 25.Nb4 Rb5 26.Nxa6 Rxb2 27.Rxb2 Bxb2 28.Nb4 Kg7 29.Nd5 Bd4 30.a4 Bc5 31.h3 f6 32.f3 Kg6 33.e4 h5 34.g4 hxg4 35.hxg4 fxe4 36.fxe4 Kg5 37.Kf3 Kg6 38.Ke2 Kg5 39.Kd3 Bg1 40.Kc4 Bf2 41.Kb5 Kxg4 42.Nxf6+ Kf3 43.Kc6 Bh4 44.Nd7 Kxe4 45.Kxb6 Bf2+ 46.Kc6 Be1 47.Nxe5 ½-½
Does Kramnik really hope to win the match in a struggle, just wait for a bug or only manage a draw more... Waiting for the 2nd game.
Wolfgang Utesch (2006-11-26 20:16:14)
Kramnik vs. Deep Fritz, 2006
I think, Kramnik has played very well, the ending was won up to move 31. !
Thibault de Vassal (2006-11-27 18:13:06)
Game 1 : Kramnik misses a win
GM Yasser Seirawan posted an article on Chessbase, explaining how Vladimir Kramnik missed the win against Deep Fritz in game 1 :
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3508
Elmer Valderrama (2006-11-27 19:40:07)
not that Deep?
..CB shooting themselves in the foot as this reveals "Deep" Fritz 10 is reeling in the endings :/
Not so "the others" which wouldn't play that endgame like that.
Elmer Valderrama (2006-11-27 20:40:39)
one move deeper..
..well, "Deep" Fritz 10 is at least one move deeper than Kramnik
Kramnik blundered mate in 1 in game 2 :(
Thibault de Vassal (2006-11-27 20:46:06)
Game 2 ...
Deep Fritz - Vladimir Kramnik
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 b5 4.a4 c6 5.Nc3 b4 6.Na2 Nf6 7.e5 Nd5 8.Bxc4 e6 9.Nf3 a5 10.Bg5 Qb6 11.Nc1 Ba6 12.Qe2 h6 13.Be3 Bxc4 14.Qxc4 Nd7 15.Nb3 Be7 16.Rc1 0-0 17.0-0 Rfc8 18.Qe2 c5 19.Nfd2 Qc6 20.Qh5 Qxa4 21.Nxc5 Nxc5 22.dxc5 Nxe3 23.fxe3 Bxc5 24.Qxf7+ Kh8 25.Qf3 Rf8 26.Qe4 Qd7 27.Nb3 Bb6 28.Rfd1 Qf7 29.Rf1 Qa7 30.Rxf8+ Rxf8 31.Nd4 a4 32.Nxe6 Bxe3+ 33.Kh1 Bxc1 34.Nxf8 Qe3 35.Qh7# 1-0
... I have no word.
Charlie Neil (2006-11-29 13:21:22)
Krammik vs Deep Fritz 2006
I was shocked at first then relieved to see the world champion making a blunder and such a blunder. Only proves that this is a terrible game! That one time Krammik knows how I feel all the time! B-)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-11-29 19:38:21)
Another draw with White :/
Vladimir Kramnik - Deep Fritz
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Bg2 dxc4 5. Qa4+ Nbd7 6. Qxc4 a6 7. Qc2 c5 8. Nf3 b6 9. Ne5 Nd5 10. Nc3 Bb7 11. Nxd5 Bxd5 12. Bxd5 exd5 13. O-O Nxe5 14. dxe5 Qc8 15. Rd1 Qe6 16. Qd3 Be7 17. Qxd5 Rd8 18. Qb3 Rxd1+ 19. Qxd1 O-O 20. Qb3 c4 21. Qc3 f6 22. b3 Rc8 23. Bb2 b5 24. Qe3 fxe5 25. bxc4 Rxc4 26. Bxe5 h6 27. Rd1 Rc2 28. Qb3 Qxb3 29. axb3 Rxe2 30. Bd6 Bf6 31. Bc5 a5 32. Bd4 Be7 33. Bc3 a4 34. bxa4 bxa4 35. Rd7 Bf8 36. Rd8 Kf7 37. Ra8 a3 38. Rxf8+ Kxf8 39. Bb4+ Kf7 40. Bxa3 Ra2 41. Bc5 g6 42. h4 Kf6 43. Be3 h5 44. Kg2 1/2-1/2
Charlie Neil (2006-11-29 23:13:37)
Krammik vs Deep Fritz, 2006
After the blunder in game two Krammik plays on and IMHO pulls game three out of the fire I thought. after getting into trouble he saved a half point with style and fight. But I could be wrong.
Jaimie Wilson (2006-11-30 15:14:36)
Game 3
I could be wrong, but I suspect fritz thought he had a clear advantage when the draw was agreed. My fritz 9 said something like -1 although even I would have fancied my drawing chances in the final position (maybe overoptimistically against a 2800 rated comp :) ).
Elmer Valderrama (2006-11-30 18:22:46)
buy it!
..the more I look at the games the more I wish CB could sell out "deep" Fritz 10 especially to my fellow CC opponents..
:^)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-01 11:19:43)
Deep Fritz, Rybka & future
The Chess Challenge 2006 in Bonn between classical world champion Vladimir Kramnik and chess engine Deep Fritz 10 confirms (who ignored ?) the best chess programs can rivalize with the world champion in a match, but it first shows us these calculating monsters still have weaknesses.
Question is : What are the real improvements in Fritz 10 compared to Fritz 9 (engine speaking only) ?
Here is what I think about chess engines nowadays (Fritz 10, Shredder, 10, Junior 10, Hiarcs 10 and particularly Rybka 2.2) :
The way of think to play correspondence chess is (or should be) mostly human one combined with a chess engine algorithm. We follow the tree of moves like a program with our selective algorithm (much better than chess engines), applying our judgement of the position when necessary only. The point is we evaluate moves and we almost never evaluate a position twice.
Chess engines are very good analysis tools but are surprisingly not designed to be very good chess players. I think a major improvement in chess engines should be recognition of 'sufficient moves' : ie. it is no worth to always find the best move at a particular point of the tree, this reflection time could be used later... It depends on the evaluation of the position, on the clocks... Iterative model is quite basic (in a game at least !).
Another point is recognition of traps. This is the start of psychology in chess engines, and basics of the art of war. It first depends on who your opponent is, and on the clocks too. Finally, at the end of the tree, chess engines evaluate positions, but how many evaluate moves ? .. Speculative moves were a step, but it first shew chess engines were not able yet to see what move is worth to be analysed really deeper, consequently creating a 'human' weakness, particularly against some other chess engines.
I don't know how Rybka works, but as far as I read about this one that calculates much less positions (about 10 times) than Fritz, I wouldn't be surprised that Vasik Rajlich had implemented a better approach of human way of think, which is undoubtly the future of chess engines.
A good 'centaur' in ie. Playchess rapid tournaments is first a good choice between Chessbase engines according to the position and clocks. Fritz qualities probably apply best in standard games, where clocks are really designed for him. Among Chessbase engines, Hiarcs is probably the best Blitz player and could be the best correspondence chess player (even if it isn't the best CC tool for humans). Rybka is probably a kind of centaur itself (sorry, herself ;)), knowing when to use (in the tree !) brute force and more selective approachs - not to be compared to Hydra or Deep Blue which, on contrary, use most brute force.
My conclusion is chess engines have much to learn from humans yet, we'll see a Rybka 5 and Fritz 13, with much better results against other chess engines, but their results shouldn't increase a lot against the best humans in future. Finally, it will never be a good correspondence chess player :)
My two cents.
If I find time, I'll continue to implement my own chess engine..... but it's a lot of work :/
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-01 11:23:50)
buy it!
HAHAHAHAHAHA ! :))
Actually question is : What are the real improvements compared to Fritz 9 (engine speaking only) ? .. I just tried to start an answer in another thread :
http://www.ficgs.com/forum_read_1713-Deep-Fritz-Rybka-future.html
Elmer Valderrama (2006-12-01 21:07:50)
intuition
I haven't got even Fritz 9, so can't answer the question..but regarding engine development, I believe they lack any chess intuition, it would be a major breakthrough to implement one
...although apparently brute force at 40-50 plies = intuition :(
Elmer Valderrama (2006-12-01 22:13:19)
good news and bad news
Some good news and bad news for "deep" Fritz 10 (& CB..)
The good news is that game 4 was drawn with the computer playing a respectable good ending as White which forced Kramnik to display all his arsenal of strategic knowledge in endgames and his World class mastery to calmly withhold a difficult position...
The bad news is that "shallow" Toga would have played the same good moves made by Kramnik :-}
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-02 04:30:34)
Game 4
Deep Fritz - Vladimir Kramnik
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. d4 Nxe4 4. Bd3 d5 5. Nxe5 Nd7 6. Nxd7 Bxd7 7. O-O Bd6 8. Qh5 Qf6 9. Nc3 Qxd4 10. Nxd5 Bc6 11. Ne3 g6 12. Qh3 Ng5 13. Qg4 Qf4 14. Qxf4 Bxf4 15. Nc4 Ne6 16. Bxf4 Nxf4 17. Rfe1+ Kf8 18. Bf1 Bb5 19. a4 Ba6 20. b4 Bxc4 21. Bxc4 Rd8 22. Re4 Nh5 23. Rae1 Rd7 24. h3 Ng7 25. Re5 Nf5 26. Bb5 c6 27. Bd3 Nd6 28. g4 Kg7 29. f4 Rhd8 30. Kg2 Nc8 31. a5 Rd4 32. R5e4 Kf8 33. Kf3 h6 34. Rxd4 Rxd4 35. Re4 Rd6 36. Ke3 g5 37. Rd4 Ke7 38. c4 Rxd4 39. Kxd4 gxf4 40. Ke4 Kf6 41. Kxf4 Ne7 42. Be4 b6 43. c5 bxc5 44. bxc5 Ng6+ 45. Ke3 Ne7 46. Kd4 Ke6 47. Bf3 f5 48. Bd1 Kf6 49. Bc2 fxg4 50. hxg4 Ke6 51. Bb1 Kf6 52. Be4 Ke6 53.Bh1 Kf6 54. Bf3 Ke6 1/2-1/2
... I really wonder if Kramnik played this Petroff defense with any hope to win.
Lionel Vidal (2006-12-02 08:55:46)
Intuition?! What for ?
3 out of 4? Really? Which test-matches are you refering to?
Leotard made a test (won :-) and with grand manner) but that was years ago, and besides, he is one of the very best :-)
Then there is the match against a panel of different engines by Ham: even if he does not play at the same level than Leotard, he is quite a good player!... and the results were very far from 3 to 4 for human :-( (that was also years ago!) Then there are the hydra matches... :-( the results are not very good also for humans and the game comments are very instructive: against first class expertise chess knowledge and intuition, the 'dump' brute force machine managed to handle quite well complex ending positions...at least as well as all correspondence players but the very best (I would say the top 20 at most :-()
Maybe there is some recent test I am not aware of?
But the point really is: who can play like, say, Leotard? Of course, he says he can crush computers, just by playing them like 2500 rated players... well, I can believe that... but when I play a fritz-push-button opponent, I am only a 2300 player... have I to use also an engine to have a chance (and one game out of ten, be very proud to have chosen another move than one of the few the engine suggested as best and still not have lost... ok, just kidding :-)?
It can be still fun, but I think it is not the same kind of chess Leotard alludes to when speaking of himself in his after match interview :-)
Lionel Vidal (2006-12-02 09:54:32)
A lone engine in CC :-)
Suppose I make the following test (it has certainily be proposed before, but let's do it again, for the fun of the argument):
- I buy a recent engine (say the new Fritz10)
- I play in some CC tournaments (I do not want to pay fees, so let's say, here at FICGS of course :-), and at iecg)
- I choose the first moves of all my games based on some statistics made on a CC base (just to avoid some openings statistically bad in CC)
- starting from a few moves before the engine goes out of its opening book (to be defined, maybe 4 moves) I let my average computer run 10 hours by move (around one night per move... I know, I sleep too much :-)
- I *always* play the very move the engine finds as best
- I play as many tournaments as I can, considering the time constraint that limits the number of games (just to get a meaningful rating as fast as possible)
Now, what rating do you think I can reach at most, strictly following these guidelines?
(note that if I know some basic maths to do the stats, I do not even have to know chess rules... although a basic knowledge is assumed to ease the play in practice)
Are you ready to bet on your guess ? :-)
In pratice, the test does not work, because the tester dies from boredom long before he gets any rating :-))
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-03 20:55:29)
Game 5
Vladimir Kramnik - Deep Fritz
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.e3 0-0 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 c5 8.Bb2 Nc6 9.Rc1 Re8 10.Bd3 dxc4 11.Bxc4 e5 12.dxe5 Qxd1+ 13.Rxd1 Nxe5 14.Nxe5 Rxe5 15.Be2 Bd7 16.c4 Re7 17.h4 Ne4 18.h5 Ba4 19.Rd3 b5 20.cxb5 Bxb5 21.Rd1 Bxe2 22.Kxe2 Rb8 23.Ba1 f5 24.Rd5 Rb3 25.Rxf5 Rxa3 26.Rb1 Re8 27.Rf4 Ra2+ 28.Ke1 h6 29.Rg4 g5 30.hxg6 Nxf2 31.Rh4 Rf8 32.Kf1 Nh3+ 33.Ke1 Nf2 34.Kf1 Nh3+ 35.Ke1 1/2-1/2
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-04 01:27:44)
Reminds me something...
Ok, now I'm afraid conditions are 'ok' so that Kramnik looses this match...
Let's say game 6 is a draw, Deep Fritz 10 wins the match by score 3,5-2,5 first program on a normal computer to beat a world champion. Great...
However Vladimir Kramnik can be satisfied of his performance, he obtained a completely winning position and didn't really loose any game. He just gave his opponent a full point in a draw position.
Honor is safe, everyone wins. Like the song, what a wonderful world :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-04 12:52:51)
Intuition
I don't agree with that. If you oppose intuition to calculation / algorithm / reasoning, chess engines do have intuition. Even Fritz has chess knowledge, that looks like ours by the way, and can play at a 1900-2000 level OTB without any calculation (1 move forward) IMO. And the same, some chess engines improve their evaluation of positions by training.
Quite complex question, nearer philosophy than computers :)
Elmer Valderrama (2006-12-04 14:32:04)
Deepy, the drawing monster
Now it's clear why CB was willing to pay 1 million if defeated: with Deep Jok..uh.. Fritz, they have created a drawing monster!!
At least it comes with a 1/2-point Life Guarantee
8-)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-06 00:05:33)
Deep Fritz 10
... wins the match 4-2
It's a shock (even if Kramnik said it and repeated - deeeep fritz is favorite). It's hard to explain such a result.
Deep Fritz - Vladimir Kramnik
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0 Be7 8.Bb3 Qc7 9.Re1 Nc6 10.Re3 0-0 11.Rg3 Kh8 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.Qe2 a5 14.Bg5 Ba6 15.Qf3 Rab8 16.Re1 c5 17.Bf4 Qb7 18.Bc1 Ng8 19.Nb1 Bf6 20.c3 g6 21.Na3 Qc6 22.Rh3 Bg7 23.Qg3 a4 24.Bc2 Rb6 25.e5 dxe5 26.Rxe5 Nf6 27.Qh4 Qb7 28.Re1 h5 29.Rf3 Nh7 30.Qxa4 Qc6 31.Qxc6 Rxc6 32.Ba4 Rb6 33.b3 Kg8 34.c4 Rd8 35.Nb5 Bb7 36.Rfe3 Bh6 37.Re5 Bxc1 38.Rxc1 Rc6 39.Nc3 Rc7 40.Bb5 Nf8 41.Na4 Rdc8 42.Rd1 Kg7 43.Rd6 f6 44.Re2 e5 45.Red2 g5 46.Nb6 Rb8 47.a4 1-0
It seems to me it was allowed to Kramnik to consult Fritz opening book, so first why to play 8. ...Qc7 !?
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-06 18:18:54)
David Bronstein
David Bronstein (February 19, 1924, Bila Tserkva, Ukraine - December 5, 2006, Minsk, Belarus) was not only one of the fathers of anti-computer play, he also drew a challenge match for the title of world champion by a score of 12-12 with Mikhail Botvinnik, the reigning champion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bronstein
He played (and beat) all the first well known chess programs : Rebel, Fritz, Zarkov, Chess player, Deep Thought, Socrates, Saitek Sparc, MChess, Genius, Dark Thought, Deep Blue Jr., XXXX ...
Some of his games - http://www.angelfire.com/on/anticomputer/bronst.html
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-14 00:09:56)
Rybka clearly the best engine vs. engine
I fully agree with both of you... We must be careful, even if all these results are really impressive, most chess engines have been designed to play against humans and to be useful analysis tools. As I said in another thread, there are still many things to improve to make it the best engine vs. engine fighter.
Nowadays, the best chess engines try to 'think' like humans and actually have inherited human weaknesses from them, so IMO a Hydra or Deep Blue would crush ie. Shredder or Junior which try to make it harder for human brain while Fritz is clearly better balanced.
Maybe this new engines generation started with Fruit which plays very solid. So Rybka, which is clearly designed to beat his rivals but I'm not convinced at all it is a better tool to play correspondence chess.
Daniel De Noose (2006-12-13 14:29:26)
Rybka clearly the best ?
This week I have tested Rybka againt 3 others engines.
The parameters :
----------------
Intel Centrino 725 (1,67 Ghz), 64 Mb Hash Tables, games in 10 minutes (+ 2 seconds per move) for each "player", Shredder 9 interface, 20 games' matches, HS-Masterbook Opening book .
The Engines :
-------------
Rybka 2.2 W32, Gambit Fruit 1.0 Beta 4bx, Toga 1.2.1a and Shredder 9.
The Results :
-------------
1) Rybka - Shredder 9 :
15,5 / 4,5 (+13,-2,=5)
2) Rybka - Toga 1.2.1a :
12 / 8 (+8,-4,=8)
3) Rybka - Gambit Fruit :
13,5 / 6,5 (+10,-3,=7)
The comments :
--------------
Rybka seems to be clearly the best for the moment ... I would like to test Rybka against other engines like Fritz 10, Shredder 10, ... but I don't have these engines. Perhaps later... ;-)
Do you have comments about this ?
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-16 03:55:35)
Topalov vs. Kramnik v2, is it worth ?
I don't know how many times Kramnik will have to defend his title if challengers provide the money, but I'm quite disappointed with this news of a match scheduled only 6 months after the previous one.
I suggest they organize a match Topalov vs. Deep Fritz 10 (reigning world champion) first...
What do you think ? :)
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-16 04:05:26)
Topalov vs. Kramnik v2, is it worth ?
Responding to myself, according to FIDE rules there could be a match about every 6 months (WCH tournament or Prize funded)...
Obviously good for world champion (and for FIDE), but maybe that's also good for chess after all. What disturbs me more is last result against Deep Fritz :/
Austin Ferrell (2006-12-16 23:31:37)
What is the best computer chess game?
Someone here should be able to help me out... should I get Deep Fritz 10, Deep Fritz 8 or Deep Shredder 10 (I'm getting a multiprocessor addition).
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-16 23:38:52)
What is the best chess program ?
Hello Austin.
You mean the best chess engine or full program ? Anyway, I think interfaces are quite the same, with small improvements in Deep Fritz 10.
About the engines, it depends more on what you expect (style of play) and the use... I would have a small preference for Deep Fritz 10 in all cases.
Austin Ferrell (2006-12-16 23:48:03)
Thanks, same with Deep Junior?
Thanks for the help. I just saw the multiproscessor Deep Junior. Do you still like Deep Fritz 10? The difference is just stylistic instead of the actual substance of the game, right?
Thibault de Vassal (2006-12-16 23:59:42)
Deep Junior vs. Deep Fritz
Style of play is a bit different while main program is about the same...
Hard to answer without knowing more... What is the chess program of your dreams ? :)
Wayne Lowrance (2006-12-18 19:34:15)
Having said that
My personal Feeling is that Rybka has not proved itself in coorespondance chess and especially against top Gm's. It makes a lot of silly computer moves as do all engines That a Gm will exploit. So I guess I agree, more or less with Thibault that chess fritz10 probobly is #1. I have purchased all of the fritz engines except for fritz 9 and the new fritz10, which explains why I jumped on the chance to get fritz 9 for free here this site. Forget about that free stuff, but that is another subject that I wish not go into. P.S. Maybe Santa will deliver F10 to me :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-01-10 20:11:09)
Fritz 10, Hiarcs 11 UCI
Did someone try Hiarcs 11 UCI already ? What do you think about this new engine ??
http://www.hiarcs.com
By the way, comments about Fritz 10, Junior 10, Shredder 10 are welcome, are they really better than previous versions ?
Sandor Marton-Bardocz (2007-01-16 18:29:21)
Conditional Move
Hi there! I noticed that there was a topic regarding conditional moves but it is closed. I think that conditional moves, aren't a bad thing after all..it should be implemented..Just think about the first moves of a game....for now, even the weakest players play theory ( fritz database or something)and this implies that the first moves will be played rather fast...Then why spend time clicking around to get to the games on a starting tournament over&over again, just to play the well known moves? U can overcome the "irritation" issue by limitating the use of conditional moves. Let's say every player has the right to use for example ...10 conditional moves in the begining of the game (in the first 15 moves for example). After that in 10 to 10 moves have let's say 2 possibilities to use conditional moves...This way it's erradicated the annoyance of countless use of premoves. Btw. I think that the example of those players who might use Fritz or whatever chessprogram to play, and then premove the lines indicated by the engine isn't really good..Only if the opponnent against whom they use it ...playes using the same lines indicated by ....an engine :-) Otherwise I can't realise how on earth the replied moves can be the same and matching with....or those lines are really forced..and if that is the case then the use of premoves is normal. Thank You.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-01-17 23:59:52)
Chess engines ratings
Some useful links about ratings and statistics for all well known chess engines : Rybka (2.2, 2.1 ..), Deep Fritz 10, Deep Shredder 10, Deep Junior 10, Hiarcs 11, Zap!Chess paderborn, Loop 10.32, Toga II, Fruit 2.2, Glaurung 1.2, Spike 1.2, Smarthink, Naum 2.0, Ktulu 8.0, CM9000, CM10th, Fritz 9, Chess Tiger 15, Chess Tiger 2007, Ruffian 2.1, List 11 and many others...
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/rating_list_all.html
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_120_ratinglist/ratinglist/rangliste.html
http://web.telia.com/~u85924109/ssdf/list.htm
Wayne Lowrance (2007-01-18 01:19:11)
Chess engines rating
Very nice information. A great big word of caution. We play coorespondence games here. Those engine-engine tournaments do not indicate directly which program is best suited for correspondence deep analysis, I do not have enough experience with the engines except earlier versions of Fritz, shredder, Hiarc, Junior and of course Dr Robert Hyatts Various versions of Crafty and Rybka. Rybka is top rated eng-eng program for fast time controls. But not sure that it is best for deep analysis. My guess is that Latest Fritz is at least as well suited for deep analysis and perhaps better. Then their is Shredder another top eng-eng program that is very very good at deep analysis. From what I read and for what it is worth those are the best engines. But if you want the strongest program for 40/120 time control down to bullet chess,then the clear winner is Rybka by Vas. Hope this is of interest. Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2007-01-19 00:25:10)
Nigel davies
http://www.chesscafe.com/davies/davies.htm This very interesting link provided here on FICS is good reading "chess Cafe" The article by Nigel is very interesting and informing. I find it very interesting that he uses Fritz as his analysis partner here on Fics. Speaks volumes for Fritz I think. I have had Fritzies for long long time starting with Fritz5, and have learned a lot that has helped me with OTB as with Nigel. I would love to find out what Nigel thinks about the latest releases of other chess engines. Sad to hear him say he no longer has time for coorespondence chess. The loss is mine and all of you. Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2007-01-28 19:34:00)
Rybka 2.2 vs. Fritz 10
Harry Schnapp organized a 6 games match between Rybka 2.2 and Fritz 10 on DUAL XEON 5160 (4x3000Mhz), the same computer Fritz 10 played and won against Vladimir Kramnik.
Rybka : 5,5 - Fritz : 0,5
http://perso.orange.fr/lefouduroi/tournois/tournois66.htm
All details and article in German / French.
Now look at the games...
What do you think ?
Ron Keyston (2007-01-29 17:27:38)
"Major" Deep Fritz 10 Bug
I've confirmed this problem on two different computers with completely different hardware and different operating systems. I've also sent the problem off to Chessbase, but have not yet gotten much of a response. If anyone else has Deep Fritz 10, would you mind giving this a try and reporting back with your results? Also, if anyone has the non-Deep version of Fritz 10, I'd be interested in knowing if it is also affected by this problem.
Input a game into Deep Fritz 10 and get to a point in the game where it is possible for black to castle long. Now save the game into a database, close the game and then open it back up from the database. If you either turn on infinite analysis, or just try to make the move, black is not able to castle long...Fritz assumes that it is an illegal move.
Furthermore, if you castle long BEFORE saving the game into the database, then save it and re-open it, then go to the position after black has castled queenside and turn on infinite analysis, the analysis is "messed up." Either the analysis text is invisible, or it reports impossible lines, or the evaluation score is very obviously wrong. This should be enough info for anyone to give the test a try, but if you want some specific examples, please let me know.
Ron
Ron Keyston (2007-01-29 19:04:14)
Specifics and Examples
OK, one PC is a 3.2GHz P4 w/1GB RAM running XP Pro. 256MB Hashtables with an ~800MB Maximum possible. The other PC is an Athlon X2 4600+ w/2GB RAM running Vista Ultimate (RTM.) It has 1GB Hashtables with ~1.5GB Maximum Possible. I can pretty much guarantee that it is not a hashtable issue though as the problem is with the legality of a move and only arises after saving into a database, closing the game and then re-opening it from the database. Also, if I open the same saved game from the database into Fritz 9, castling long as black is perfectly OK.
As for some examples, I will give the same five games that I sent to Chessbase. Some of these are contrived examples, whereas some are from my games here at FICGS:
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Bg4 6.O-O Nc6 7.d4
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6 7.Nf3 b6 8.Bc4 Bb7 9.Qe2 Nd7 10.O-O-O c6 11.Rhe1 Qc7 12.g3
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c4 7.Qg4 g6 8.Nf3 Qa5 9.Bd2 Nh6 10.Qh3 Nf5 11.g4 Nxd4 12.cxd4 Qb6 13.Bg2 Nc6 14.Qh6 Nxd4 15.O-O Bd7 16.Bg5 Ba4 17.Nxd4 Qxd4 18.Qg7 Rf8 19.Be3 Qxg4 20.Bc5
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd6 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 a6 6.Be3 Nc6 7.Qd2 Bf5 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.Be2 e6 10.O-O-O
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 c4 7.Qg4 g6 8.Nf3 Qa5 9.Bd2 Nh6 10.Qh3 Nf5 11.g4 Nxd4 12.cxd4 Qb6 13.Bg2 Nc6 14.Qh6 Nxd4 15.O-O Bd7 16.Qg7
In all five examples, it is black to move from the final position. Also, in all five examples, castling long/queen-side is perfectly legal and likely one of the best moves. BEFORE the game(s) is/are saved into the database, Fritz allows black to castle long (and it is at or near the top line in infinite analysis mode.) AFTER saving the game into a database, closing the game window, and re-opening the game from the database, Fritz treats castling long as an illegal move.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-01-31 00:09:34)
Rybka secret
An interesting (even if totally wrong) article about Rybka's strength and particularly his results against Deep Fritz on Rybka forum.net .. A computer gate, is Rybka cheating ? :)
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=90
Rybka forum - http://www.rybkaforum.net
Charlie Neil (2007-02-02 11:45:33)
Without Computer
Marcus if you can please read the old forum postings, "Why do you play corr-chess." I made a similar comment about computers being used as the main player. Believe me I was wrong! As much as in correspondence chess you can use notes, books and databases for reference. Here at FICGS, (A great site!) players use their computers as a reference. It does not benefit anyone to just relay their computer moves without understanding them. Those players won't prosper nor will develop a passion we chessplayers have for the game. I believe that now to be the case. Personally I don't have a Juinor8, Fritz 10 or Deep Joe 90 or whatever to use as a reference point. I do have a pile of books that serve to confuse me in my games. As I continue to seek understanding in this game. People should use computers as long as the computers don't use them! How boring can it be just to imput moves? The computer isn't compulsory. And I am saving a fortune on stamps playing here! It is fun after all. It is only a game. Even if it is a terrible one.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-10 03:08:52)
Rybka, Fritz and future...
Computerchess is definitely an exciting challenge... The community is fast-growing, new versions of chess engines appear every day, many dream to be the next Vasik Rajlich and to produce an engine that would beat the well-known Chessbase engines and the famous Rybka.
These days, I had a look at Fruit 2.1, TogaII and Crafty source code that are available to download, and started to implement new search & evaluation functions. It's quite easy to understand why chess programming is so addictive, so much done and so much to do... finally I did not enter this mad race without an ending, probably for the same reasons Anthony Cozzie (the author of Zap! Chess Zanzibar) and many others retired.
However here are my feelings about future of chess engines, and the fight that just started between most probably Chessbase engines (Fritz, Shredder, Junior and Hiarcs) and a new era of chess engines that started with Rybka...
First, it's quite obvious to me that Rybka (now Rybka 2.3) is only another one of a long series of chess engines always stronger than each others ! .. I expect the next ones to reach 50, 100 then 200 points more (and maybe more) on the next chess engines elo rating lists, a scale that definitely can't be compared to human elo rating list ! .. Several reasons to this : (1) Chess engines are human killers at standard time controls, but chess engines are far to play perfect chess yet. (2) The way ratings are calculated.
Rybka taught us several things IMO :
- Algorithms and evaluation functions are no more enough. Now chess engines have to play chess, not only search a tree of chess positions... That's probably what Rybka brought to computerchess. Since Fruit 2.1 & Toga II source code is available, and computerchess community is constantly discussing improvements in algorithms, evaluations of positions and new ideas, to implement a chess engine becomes easier so I have no doubt that new very strong chess engines like Rybka will come.
- To become famous, a chess engine must 'also' beat his rivals. I first thought that Rybka was designed to be an engines killer only (at least before to be an analysis tool) with some tricks exploiting most engines weaknesses. No, Rybka is also a great UCI engine, simply stronger and with many options & features. Like Vasik Rajlich, who is engineer and international chess master, you'll have not only to think like an engineer to create such an engine. However I still don't think it is the best analysis tool for correspondence chess, it doesn't play really better chess and in all cases it is not enough. More, Rybka 3, 4, 5 shouldn't influence correspondence chess (maybe even human vs. machine) much... Computerchess influences computerchess first.
It's written sometimes that the strongest chess engines could reach a IM, even GM level at correspondence chess. I definitely disagree with that, at least for the moment (it will take a long time yet), but as chess engines results tend to approach correspondence chess ones (means more and more draws), I do think chess engines have much to learn from correspondence chess players way of thinking, meaning : A more psychological approach, bonus for traps detection. Evaluate moves, not only positions. A more complex search, not 'only' iterative (brute force is definitely useless). No more anti-human style, speculative moves (=weakness, ie. Deep Junior) for speculative results against strongest chess engines, draws are prefered. To avoid positions not understood by the engine. Longer games, closed games (if supported)... Opening books should look like correspondence chess GMs ones (of course according to the engine's style of play) and no more been made of FIDE GM games. A better time management... Future of computerGo may teach to computerchess about some evaluations.
A chess engine must play good moves AND try to win (which is not always the same). It seems Fruit & Rybka play solid and are waiting to exploit their opponent's weaknesses thanks to a better "chess" algorithm/knowledge. As far as I have seen, Shredder & Fritz still have the best 'eye', they see far but fuzzy. Quite the same about Fruit & Toga developped by a great engineer, Fabien Letouzey : Less chess knowledge but an improved algorithm. As for Rybka, a great chess knowledge and probably a smarter algorithm (not better, smarter !) were probably enough already. The future best chess engines will be made by good chess players...
An interesting point is it could be not so easy, maybe even nonsense, to create the best analysis tool that would also obtain the best results against other chess engines. My first prediction is Rybka won't be the top rated chess engine ever, hundreds of new ideas will appear in all parts of chess programming, slowly breaking Rybka secrets, then speed will be a factor again. Deep Fritz, Junior, Fruit or Hydra are most probably the core of the next generations of chess engines... but there's a lot of work yet :)
My two cents.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-02-15 14:26:23)
Engine free area
Definitely, there won't be a (C) mark as computer, (F) as Fritz, (B) as books or (D) as databasen, (C+B), (F+D+B) and so on :) .. It makes sense in blitz / bullet chess on Playchess ie., not in correspondence chess, as human makes the real decision.
Definitely, I agree with Marc. I had some experience in the past in organizations that forbid computer assistance, I'm convinced it's no use to separate rating lists. Actually, it would even lose some interest for many players.
Anyway, if you do not take care about top ratings, just play chess without computer assistance (it is allowed too) :)
Wayne Lowrance (2007-02-15 22:50:39)
Rybka, Fritz and future
I would like to comment. Your post is most interesting. I sort of disagree with you a little bit. But first: I do agree with you that Rybka may not be the best CC engine. I sort of like F10 for that. Rybka end game is lacking behind several other engines, including Fritz. Perhaps the best cc engine is a dark horse. named Zap, latest version. Rybka kills Zap according to posting in short games (Blitz) but recent testing evidence by reliable testers indicate that it is one heck of a engine in standard time controls. In my opinion there are several engines that have proven that Humans have lost a grip in chess play.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-03-03 17:12:57)
Rybka 2.3.1
Rybka 2.3.1 beta is available, Rybka 2.3.2 is announced, quite hard to follow Vasik Rajlich's work day after day :) .. Rybka forum is very active and it seems Rybka 2.3.1 is the strongest Rybka and the strongest chess engine today !
I hope Fritz, Junior, Shredder and Hiarcs authors are working hard...
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=472#fp
Samy Ould Ahmed (2007-03-05 21:05:00)
Mon parcour, suite...
Ronde 6 : je joue 2.d3 contre la Caro-Kann pour éviter les variantes théorique annulante, j'ai bien fait car mon adversaire suit betement sa machine et je me retrouve avec une position complétement gagnante...que je gache en jouant betement un coup que Fritz 9 m'a suggéré, je suis obligé de faire nulle. Ronde 7 : je joue contre Umansky avec les noirs, une partie fantastique, une catalane ou j'obtiens 3 pions contre l'initiative à mon adversaire et mon roi au centre, je choisi les variantes les plus compliquées et je gagne au temps dans une position probablement perdante, j'au eu chaud :-) Ronde 8 : je fait une nulle de salon avec les blancs puisque je suis sur de ne pas me qualifier. Finalement j'ai 4/8 et suis assez satisfait de mon parcours, du fait que j'ai joué seul et avec une machine relativement lente (un P4 2,93 GHZ)
Elmer Valderrama (2007-03-26 11:47:37)
Oh dear
I've got nothing against chessbase, but as you can see, they go so low quality that is impossible to ignore them ;)
The main thing from this article (ie shot in the foot) is that actually nobody learns anything about how to use ChessBase in Correspondence Chess :)
All we got is a careful description of what is legal or illegal !?
It would be good if the second part is written by someone a bit more experienced but as it seems there is no-one available there, at least the author could benefit from reading some other CC forums (although judging by the "hope my opponents are using engine(Fritz) assistance" which looks familiar to me ;), they could be reading this one 8-)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-04-23 21:34:41)
Deep Fritz vs. Deep Junior
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3802
FIDE will organize a computer-computer 6-games match during the final days of the candidates match in june in Elista.
The "players" : Reigning computer chess world champion Deep Junior and 'reigning world champion' Deep Fritz. Time control : 75 min + 5 sec / move, the winner will get $60,000, the loser $40,000
This match brings a few questions : No particular comment on the choice of the engines, Rybka will wait for a win in a computer chess world championship... However I can't see a real interest for FIDE and for chess in such a match. I mean 6 games of rapid computer chess.. $100,000 !? Of course it will attract a few new players - to beat computers is an attractive challenge. But at least I hope Chessbase is the main sponsor :) .. does it mean a new Deep FRitz and Deep Junior version in june ? .. I hope that the games analyzed by Rybka 2.3 won't reveal the engines too poor.. :/ .. Finally what 'title' for the winner ?! ;)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-04-23 22:31:50)
Rybka tops SSDF rating list
2007 april 21 - New SSDF computer chess rating list is out !
http://web.telia.com/~u85924109/ssdf/list.htm
Rybka 2.3.1 tops the list with 2962 elo, followed by a surprising Hiarcs 11.1 with 2871 elo. Then, Junior 10.1 and Fruit 2.2.1 followed by Shredder 10. That's a pity Fritz 10 and probably Zap! chess Zanzibar are not rated yet.
The king Rybka will probably have serious opponents soon...
Thibault de Vassal (2007-05-03 21:24:27)
opponents
To implement chess knowledge is a question of time, I'm not sure it was a priority in the last Fritz/Junior versions. Rybka will have serious challengers in a few months, one year at most :)
Albert H. Alberts (2007-05-13 09:45:39)
shesnikov
ALL: Here is a possible novelty in the Shesnikov:1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 9.Bf6 gf6 10.Nd5 f5 11.Bd3 Be6 12.0-0 Bd5 13.ed5 Ne7 and now tournament lines go say Re1 to respond e4 with Bf1 and win over Nc2/a4 in the endgame. TRY 14. c3 Bg7 15. g4!? e4 16.Bc2 b4 17.cb4!? Bb2 18. Kh1 and now I was able to win for white after both Ba1 or Ba3 having gf5/Be4 or Ba4 and an open g-( and c and b)-file for white.Suppose g4 is healthy no black tournament player will engage in Shesnikov for a while? www.howtofoolfritz.com updated late april. Albert H.Alberts
Albert H. Alberts (2007-05-19 15:54:40)
shesnikov
Cirulis/Thibault. Indeed after 14.-fg4 15.Qg4 f5 black is clearly better. But my Fritz-10 went 14.- e4/Bb2 and that is bad. However white can go 12.c3 Bd5 13/ed5 Ne7 14. g4!? hg4 15.Qg4 Rg8 16.Qf3 Ng6 and then 17.0-0-0 to save tempi for 0-0/Kh1 and connect rooks.I'll be back early next week for lines.
Albert H. Alberts (2007-05-23 14:49:38)
shesnikov
To Wolfgang Utech: ALL openings have more secrets can the engines can detect.Invariant of the program Fritz, Rybka, Junior, whatever.Question is to unveil them.It is more difficult with greater processing speed/deeper depth. In "so-called "free style" chess (allowing use of machines) players go over ELO 3000 no draws, so some of them should be able to beat machines with ease. Albert H.Alberts,www.howtofoolfritz.com
Albert H. Alberts (2007-05-26 01:33:41)
Deep Fritz vs. Deep Junior
Thibault: Maybe the reason is that ICGA Ilyumzhinov=FIDE=ICGA=Chessbase=Fritz stage an advertisement campaign with Fritz-10 the New Ruling WC? In that case the 100 000 comes back triple. Who knows. Computer chessmen/women know that Rybka is unbeatable at the moment.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-06 19:12:00)
Rybka: $100,000 challenge to FIDE
The author of Rybka - undoubtly the strongest chess engine (Rybka 2.3.1), Vasik Rajlich challenges FIDE for a $100,000 match between Rybka and the winner of the "Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge 2007" between Deep Junior and Deep Fritz, that just started (first game drawn) :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1126
Also the match offer to grandmasters is more and more interesting :
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=794;pg=1
I doubt Chessbase or FIDE would accept to organize & play such a match, even if Fritz 11 or 12 can beat the next Rybka... The war of engines is not on the chessboard nowadays but that's quite interesting to follow anyway :)
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-06 19:42:12)
Game 1
Well, the first game was a draw... to be continued.
Deep Junior - Deep Fritz
Fritz vs Junior Match Elista, 2007
1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.d4 c6 5.e3 Nbd7 6.Qc2 Bd6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.0-0 dxc4 9.Bxc4 b5 10.Bd3 Bb7 11.e4 e5 12.dxe5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 Bxe5 14.h3 Qe7 15.Be3 Rfe8 16.Ne2 Rad8 17.Bxa7 c5 18.Bxc5 Qc7 19.Be3 Qxc2 20.Bxc2 Bxe4 21.Bxe4 Nxe4 22.Rfd1 Bxb2 23.Rxd8 Rxd8 24.Rb1 Be5 25.f4 Bc7 26.Rxb5 Rd3 27.Bd4 f6 28.h4 g6 29.a4 Ng3 30.Nxg3 Rxd4 31.Ne2 Rxa4 32.g3 1/2-1/2
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-09 04:48:24)
Nodes per second
Well, game 2 was a draw, game 3 was a win for Deep Junior...
"Deep Fritz is running on an eight-core machine and searching 13-14 million nodes per second, reaching a search depth of 20-21 ply. Deep Junior is employing the latest Intel Server technology with 16 cores. The program is running at 24 million nodes per second and consistantly reaching search depths of 24 ply."
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3916
Not bad in such a time control : 75 min + 10 sec per move... but does it mean anything to run two engines on two different computers !??
Michael Aigner (2007-06-10 03:10:07)
Different PCs - Marketing rules!
Maybe Chessbase thinks they already sold enough copies of Fritz and the market is already satisfied. Now it is time to promote another engine as the "strongest" - the plan is to to sell a lot of Junior copys - how many people own Junior yet, not a lot compared to Fritz - right?
Michael Aigner (2007-06-15 12:53:31)
It depends
Hello Thibault In my opinion is Rybka very strong in the middle game as long as you got a position where a kingside attack is not possible - otherwise you should use some other engine. My experiance is that Rybka nedds some more plys to see the danger (or opportunity to attack), than other engines do. In Endgames it is also good but check always with Fritz or Shredder if you want to avoid ending in a dead drawn ending with an Rybka evaluation of +1 Best regards Michael
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 02:05:59)
World Computer Chess Championship (WCCC)
Is this World Computer Chess Championship still worth something without programs such as Hiarcs, Junior & Fritz ?
This way, only 3 or 4 games are decisive and undoubtly - or I should say randomly - Rybka will win ahead of Zappa and Shredder. At least Rybka will obtain the "last major" title to pretend to be the very best chess engine.
WCCC 2007 - http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/news.php
Wayne Lowrance (2007-06-18 03:53:01)
World Computer Chess Championship (wccc)
Thibault, I dont care for your notion here. It is WCCC and should not be downgraded because ChessBase and program authors of Hiarcs, junior & fritz did not enter. Those programs have the big rep';s, but in actuality you should check out all of the rating sites. Zappa ranks Higher that those three programs for example. There is a thing called GridChess, which is very strong, beat shreddar. Oh I dunno, I could go on. Mostly I object to chesbase direct or indirect control of the chess engine tournaments. And to make things worse you and others posts nonsense as this. My two cents my friend. Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 05:32:40)
WCCC
Hi Wayne.
I mean, WCCC is a tournament like any other (no federations or whatever...), it is a big event and program authors come to play, that's great. But the format with so few interesting games can't provide accurate results :/
I agree that Deep Fritz & Junior are not the strongest chess engines today, but they are a good test for other ones and a way to improve the results of a tournament. IMO a World Computer Chess Champion should be ie. the SSDF 1st ranked program, which is continuous tournament with many games played, or maybe the games played at SSDF should be organized like a continuous swiss tournament.
Dirk Ghysens (2007-06-18 06:11:14)
Top programs
According to the CCRL rating list, the top programs today are: 1 Rybka 2 Zap!Chess 3 Hiarcs 4 Naum 5 Loop 6 Deep Shredder Fritz (7th) and Junior (8th) are so weak, that they cannot play a significant role in a world championship. The latest version of Rybka (2.3.2) can be estimated at more than 200 Elo points above Deep Fritz and Deep Junior. The SSDF rating list is unreliable IMO, as they are using antiquated hardware, and several of the best programs are missing.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-18 06:26:11)
WCCC
Computerchess rating lists are very different from human's ones. Fritz & Junior are not so weak (ok, maybe Junior is :)) .. At least they can beat Loop and Naum. Anyway I meant that more strong programs should play at the WCCC, the results can't be significant this year because too few interesting games will be played (and there was a bug in some Rybka game). At last I agree about CCRL, it is more trustable than SSDF rating list.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-20 22:54:33)
Internet chess
Well, the discussion with Tryfon Gavriel continues at TCCMB. As I had to explain the way I make FICGS, I copy my responses here :
http://ancients.correspondencechess.com/index.php?topic=109.15
Hello again Tryfon !
That's a very interesting discussion...
Actually I have to explain FICGS in its whole to respond :) .. To be continued for sure..
While registering a new member wrote to me a few months ago "Thanks for creating this ultimate chess challenge" or so... That's exactly what I try to do, mostly with the FICGS championship knockout & round-robin rules... Players just want challenge, that's the only assumption I start with, so I try to create interesting challenges. About the intellectual part, you're right but I'm quite sure that top level correspondence chess players still consider their game as an intellectual challenge, much more than a brute force or computer skills one. That's not the case for Advanced chess with fast time controls.
Let's take a look at the bicycle races again... The "Tour de France" is dying IMO.. because everyone understood we "don't know" if the champion is ok.. If doping was allowed (it would be a scandal for health of course), I'm sure the interest would raise again ! I think it is the same for chess & for everything else... The "Tour de France" syndrom happened in Elista with the match Kramnik vs. Topalov... It will have consequences. We need champions and we want true champions, every means are ok for this ! .. So the "engines allowed" rule is the only one possible or reasonable in my opinion.
Of course, chess & correspondence chess are changing, because these "walls" are nearer & nearer... maybe chess will die, maybe not.. The main problem is that in 1997, a super computer became World Champion... this year a "simple" computer Deep Fritz became world champion, soon Rybka on a cellular phone... :) Who is really interested to be a champion in "human category" ? FIDE world chess championship will continue to progressively lose its interest IMO...
Correspondence chess is just starting to grow in popularity and is told to be dying already. Surely correspondence chess will ask more & more time at a high level to win a few points, but it is possible to create more challenge by ie. changing the rating rules (the "design" of Elo rating system will become a problem).. Then, if it is not enough, we'll look for other challenges... It's told for years that Go (Weiqi) will replace chess in western countries... why not Big chess as the "brain only" game if there can't be doping in it.. just trying, as there's no other solution :)
A word about Poker of course, as it's probably the fastest growing game in popularity : IMO this game is at a stade like chess in year 1900, but the same problem will happen, even quicker. At a high level the game will be just more and more boring (if you wish to win real money) or chancy (in a wch tournament), or you'll have to always find weak players (well, not very challenging).
About the simultaneous exhibition against Alekhine or Capablanca, I'm not sure at all they would crush everyone at our chess servers, they are undoubtly more talented than all of us, but I feel it wouldn't be enough in all cases to win against correspondence chess style of play & knowledge accumulated for 50 years... A few players rated OTB 2000-2200 could draw against them IMO...
At last, yes I'm a fan of Sun Tzu's "The art of war" :) .. I strongly believe that correspondence chess will not die in the next few years because players will follow its principles more and more, as the only way to win ! .. Big chess follows the same principles... and Go is the most challenging game because of it too !
Tryfon, I'm not sure that we're opposite in our vision of chess ! .. Our servers have obviousy different goals, nothing more.. I do enjoy playing mad blitz games without chess engines... I just believe that the future of internet chess is "serious (engines allowed, rated) correspondence chess" on one hand and "human chess for fun (no engines, unrated)" on the other hand... The other ways look like nonsense to me.
I hope it responds.
Best wishes, Thibault
Ilmars Cirulis (2007-06-23 06:26:21)
Poisoned Pawn Variation
Between engines:
Rybka vs Shredder in WCCC Round 11 [Re8 1-0]
Flyingfatman vs Mission control in Freestyle Final Round 1 [Re8 1-0]
Fritz vs Junior Game 3 [Re8 1-0]
Albert H. Alberts (2007-06-25 14:36:49)
World Computer Chess Championship (WCCC)
All: JUNIOR has won over Fritz in Elista.RYBKA wins Olympiade Amsterdam. It got me thinking: instead of being an 'engine-to-engine contest can it be that the whole thing is a book-to-book contest? The program that has the best opening book with novelties will come out on top, invariant from the engine. Is that why RYBKA is so good? IM V.Rajlich? The future WC will be the program with the best book. The future WC tournament chess will be the one who knows this book. Maybe they will be one and the same person? Great news for the sport I think. Greetings Albert H. Alberts,Amsterdam www.howtofoolfritz.com
Albert H. Alberts (2007-06-25 14:48:57)
Deep Fritz vs. Deep Junior
FICGS: Junior won over Fritz Elista 2007. Very sharp but correct remark by M.Aigner: people that bought Fritz will now want to have Junior too the FIDE-approved champ by K. Ilyumzinov= ICGA=FIDE=CHESSBASE=FRITZ(=Junior?). However: he future champ will be the program with the best BOOK with sharp novelties. The future world tournament champ will be the one who knows/WROTE this book. It is like in cycling: you can have a great "bike" (chess engine) but to win the Tour the France you still have to peddle. That champ/novelty finder/writer/head player can be one and the same person. Great news for the sport I think.The new "Fischer" will come. Albert H.Alberts, www.howtofoolfritz.com
Thibault de Vassal (2007-06-26 01:35:03)
A guide to Endgames Tablebases
Endgames tablebases fully explained, a great page :
http://horizonchess.com/FAQ/Winboard/egtb.html
* [A.1] What is a endgame tablebase? How do they work? How much stronger will it make my chess program play?
* [A.2] What are the different endgame tablebases formats out there? What are the differences?
* [A.3] Where can I learn more about the endgame table formats?
* [A.4] What are the Chess programs that support endgame tables? Which format do they support?
* [A.5] Where can I get endgame tablebase?
* [A.6] Where can I buy tablebases?
* [A.7] Where can I download tablebases?
* [A.8] How do I generate tablebases on my computer?
* [A.9] How large are the tablebase files? Can I put then all into one directory? Do I have to use a complete set of 5 men tablebases?
* [A.10] Questions about 6 men endgame tablebases. Which are the most useful?
* [A.11] How do I find out which tablebase is corrupted? How do I know the endgame tablebases are working?
* [A.12] What is datacomp.exe? Where can I get it?
* [A.13] How do I get Crafty to work with Endgame tablebases?
* [A.14] How can I get Fritz to use Endgame tablebases?
* [A.15] What is the difference between tablebases download from Dr Hyatt's ftp site and those on the Chessbase endgame turbo CD? Can they be used together?
* [A.16] What are the files ending with .tbs? What about those with nbb and nbw? Do i need both?
* [A.17] Help, the endgame tablebases are not working properly!
* [A.18] Can I use tablebase files in zipped form?
* [A.19] Where can I get a useful graphical browser to view endgame tablebases? What about an online searchable database?
* [A.20] Misc questions
Thibault de Vassal (2007-07-14 02:57:01)
Rybka vs. Ehlvest (2nd)
A new 6-games match occured during july 2007 between the latest version of Rybka and GM Ehlvest with some "advantages" given to the human. One more time, Rybka convincingly won the match : 4,5-1,5
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1614
Well, not so bad after Kramnik's 4-2 loss vs. Deep Fritz... Help, we need help :)
Ivan Pljusnin (2007-08-10 14:29:54)
IGAME and FICGS are cyber-nations?
It sounds very promising. I guess, the most respectable citizens are Fritz, Shredder, Rybka and some other engines who have dual citizenship. :-)
If FICGS intends to extradite --- [moderator : name deleted] please do it after he finishes his match games. :-)
Ivan Pljusnin (2007-08-13 16:59:33)
2 Thibault, Sergey
"Is "pig" offensive in your opinion ? :)"
Some IGAME players call me "bio-appendage of Fritz", and I am proud of it. Fritz is the greatest! He will tear to pieces everybody!
Frankly speaking, I am not worthy to be His bio-appendage like all other mortals. So I don't mind somebody calling me His pig-headed fan. For me it's rather a compliment. :-)
Christophe Czekaj (2007-09-03 12:53:52)
no chess engines
Hello Thibault, I play here without chess engine. Anyway, recently I tried to play "hippopotamus defence", (with no good result yet, I have to admit) so a computer is no use, it doesn't understand anything, but perhaps it's hippopotamus which is wrong, not the computer ;-D. Anyway a difficult defence in correspondence play). I began on this site with 2000, and so my elo was too high to play against human only ? I don't see how it's possible a sofware detect computer use ? Ok we see strange, computer-like moves sometimes, but... Perhaps two players, at the beginning of the game can agree to not use computer. Again about chess engine, I use a computer to record the moves (chessbase),to gain time, and replay fast the moves to get to the actual position, but my chess engines (an old fritz (5) and chess tiger (14) all that on a old PC) would certainly suffer a lot use against more recent chess engines ;-D Like Philip, I like to play on ficgs and it would be nice to plmay against more human opponent. I play one tournament on itsyourturn since last year, and I saw a lot more human mistakes than on ficgs. So, how explain it, I sometimes feel more comfortable on itsyourturn, but still I do like the spirit of ficgs, match against RU, the tournaments, forum, nice people to meet on the board, and so on
Jason Repa (2007-09-05 15:11:44)
HAL9000: "I think you missed it Dave"
The fact of the matter is that you'll never be able to tell for certain if someone is consulting a program or not in corr. chess, so why fret about it?
You have several options:
1) There is otb chess. Unless your opponent is pulling out his palm computer with pocket fritz in the washroom, you can be reasonably certain it's a mano e mano game.
2)There is also fast internet chess on a secure server such as playchess.com. I'm not sure how secure ICC is these days. If the games are 3 min or shorter you can be pretty certain it's human chess at least 99.9% of the time.
If you want to play corr. chess, fine, but why play a game called "let's worry about whether or not my opponent is making good on his promise to not look at the rybka engine suggestions". Just use it for what modern corr. chess really is...which is an excellent form of group study to prepare for REAL chess, ie, OTB chess.
Glen D. Shields (2007-09-06 04:20:15)
Engine Use - My Take
The switch from postcard to server chess has been a wonderfully positive experience.
The transition from human chess to silicon chess on the otherhand has left me bored and wondering if there's still a purpose to the game.
Every tournament is the same. The tournament starts with 6 to 10 players. The moves transition out of the opening at lightning speed, then "Fritz and Rybka time" begins. Turn on your favorite engine and there's a >95% probablitity that your opponents' moves mimic the top engines. There are no surprises, nothing interesting, just boring repetition.
Only a few percent of the chess world can outplay the top engines on fast hardware. Human intervention is like adding a drop of water to a bucket of water and thinking you've made a difference. Most matches are one computer versus another computer and the results are predictable: 1-2 wins, 1-2 losses, most of the games drawn.
I don't oppose engine use. There's no way to enforce it, so there's hardly a reason to forbid it. I do question, however, its purpose. It's just as easy and entertaining for me to play against my computer as it is to play your computer ... and I can do it on my timeline not yours.
I played a friendly young man earlier this year in the ICCF. He was vocal and proud of his high rating and good reults. He'd been playing for less than a year. He eventually admitted through our friendly chat that he hardly knew the moves and rules. He had no idea what "en passant" was or the basic theory of the openings. It took everything I had to save my position and earn a draw from him. That game was "my epithany." I made up my mind to take a break and reconsider what CC is all about. Engine use has been a great technical accomplishment, but has it made CC more enjoyable? Not for me. I hope most of you feel differently.
Good luck and good chess to all :-)
Jason Repa (2007-09-06 08:15:18)
engine use
[moderator : partly deleted]
I explained quite clearly in my previous post that.... "you'll never be able to tell for certain if someone is consulting a program or not in corr. chess, so why fret about it?"
The truth is, there are no corr. sites that can satisfy a desire to play non computer-assisted chess because corr. chess doesn't work that way anymore. Anyone can simply say they aren't consulting a program but unless they are right in front of you as they are making the moves you'll never know for sure. (...) Just accept reality for what it is. Are you going to try to have a footrace with someone on a scooter? Of course not. So why complain about computer use on corr. chess? Re-read my previous post in this thread a few times until you understand.
There is something to be said for human only chess. It is my favourite form of the game. Really, the only form. All else is just study and analysis. You can call it "playing" if you want, but unless you're making the moves strictly on your own brainpower, it's not playing chess.
I play rated OTB tournaments at time controls ranging from 5 minutes to 6 hours. I also play hundreds of bullet games a week online where I am certain that there is no computer involvement. To me this makes allot more sense than whining and crying about the advent of Fritz (and other programs). It's called accepting realilty.
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-06 22:10:04)
Rybka
Hi Thibault Could you say a bit more about Rybka how it has changed things? I have only ever used Fritz. CC for me is about chess research finding the truth about certain positions and openings and it helps in "real" chess. Its a fairly level playing field as all the programs are affordable but it sounds like us non rybka folk are at a disadvantage! And in the real chess world computer assisted work is obviously a huge part of the game.
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-10 21:05:48)
chess engines
Following Thibault's comments about Rybka having changed correpondence chess I purchased the rybka engine. It is a very good program but I dont see how it has affected cc anymore than Fritz. I have used Fritz 8 and 9 extensively for analysis and have until now no experience of other engines. Although I have just downloaded Toga II which is an excellent engine (and free!!) if anyone wants a free engine this is a top program that downloads in seconds and is up there with the commercial programs. I noticed Rybka seems more conservative evaluating positions than Fritz. However it has blind spots. For an example taken from the current chess cafe "Yasser Annotates" (Ivanchuk Seirawan 1990)after 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 dxe 4 Nxe Bc5 5 Ng3 Bg6 6 h5 h6 7 Nf3 Nd7 8 h5 Bh7 9 Bd3 Bxd 10 Qxd Ngf6 11 Bf4 e6 12 0-0-0 Be7 13 c4 b5 Black offers a pawn my reaction is not to take - otb I would never take. Why open the c file for black and grabbing the pawn by Qxb5 looks risky with only 2 pawns to cover the king and open b and c files. Fritz prefers 14 c5 with 14 cxd followed by 15 Kb1 as 2nd choice after 3 minutes ply 15 depth Rybka r chooses 14 cxb cxb then 15 Qxb5?! even after 1 hour at ply 19! In cc I would look at 14cxb and 15 Qxb5 to see if I could survive and win with the extra pawn but working with Fritz it takes but a few minutes to see black has compensation after 15 Qxb5 Nd5. When 16 Be5 gives an inferior endgame for white and 16 Bd2 Rb8 gives an attack for black. The top professionals work with a range of programs Fritz, Junior, Shredder, Hiracs and Rybka to generate ideas. Does anyone have any views on these other program's characteristics?
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-10 22:42:32)
chess engines
First of all, every chess engines is a choice, ie. about selectivity, and has consequences & weaknesses in particular positions. Fruit/Toga algorithm is really good but it has probably still much less chess knowledge than Rybka. I think Rybka's algorithm is really better also, Vasik Rajlich added some "human features" while other programs still think about chess like mathematics.
Rybka changed correspondence chess because Fritz or Junior (very strong chess machines) added to a good chess player makes a good centaur while Rybka is "almost" a centaur itself... Consequently a weak chess player can reach quite easily a 2100/2200 rating. That's the main reason...
Of course Rybka will always make some bad moves, but it/she builds an advantage move after move against other engines in most cases in 'calm' positions. HIARCS, that was told during a long time to think most like a human, was not a strong 'chess machine'. I don't know much about Hiarcs 11/12, but Rybka is a major improvement in this way IMO.
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-10 23:31:53)
chess engines
Hi Jason As Thibault post indicates Toga is a fruit flavour ie fruit variant. Check CEGT rating list for single version engines (http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/rating.htm) Toga II is at no3 and Fruit 2.3 is at no 5 position. As for our game no engine is ever going to save me! Maybe 28 ..Rc8 would have held but earlier on 14 exd6 Bf6 15 Bxf8 Kxf6 16 Qf3 looks really disgusting for black. I am not going to blame the opening but Fritz and I are back to the Najdorf! Apparently Aagard had a book out on offbeat sicilianl ines in which he could find no way for white to gain an advantage in this Prins line hmm Im sceptical. Thibault - thanks for expanding on your comments. I note your point about calm positions. The game I cited is the sort of wild position where Rybka is not so good later in the game it is convinced that 19 ..Nxf2 is good for black a move which loses and which fritz rejects fairly quickly.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-10 23:43:36)
Rybka
Rybka is clearly not designed for wild positions. In this case, knowledge is not efficient, Junior/Fritz are !
Thibault de Vassal (2007-09-11 00:03:00)
CEGT Best Versions 40/20 (AMD 4200+)
1. Rybka 2.3.2a (2975) , 2. Hiarcs 11.1 (2831) , 3. Toga II 1.3.4 (2829) , ... 6. Fritz 10 (2826)
This gap (144 points) is really extraordinay...
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-11 22:04:32)
Chess comp ratings
Rybka is most dominant in the single processor versions when it comes to multi processor versions the gap is less and suddenly Zap chess appears. I am not sure why this is. Another point thats interesting is Rybkas endgame evaluations there is some significant difference with Fritz here. It seems a bit overoptimistic but sometimes it seems right. Finally a striking point when using Rybka is how comparatively few positions it is analysing per second compared to Fritz maybe only 10%. This illustrates Thibaults point about Rybka's far greater reliance on chess knowledge.
Gene Sensabaugh (2007-09-12 16:18:56)
Gene Sensabaugh
I am still trying to make a decision to use a chess engine or not.If for example my moves are the majority of the time according to Fritz10 are inferior I can't see how it's going to help me accept to gain rating points.Say during a game I consult Fritz and for example I have overlooked a mate in 10.Which move would you choose?I have serious doubts that many people on here can beat Fritz10 unless they are grandmaster class.In a game you consult your engine select between it's choices and select one of"it's" choices.You receive a move and the process repeats.So why compete against human players most likely inferior to engine analysis?
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-12 16:51:49)
Gene
ok Gene let me give you my experience as to why you should use an engine in cc. 1) I have learnt a lot about certain openings and I remember lot more effective systems 2) finding the truth about a position is fun and instructive 3) I have acquired some endgame knowledge I never would have got. 4) Generally I wil try to understand why the engines like certain moves and drill down into the position trying altrentives until I get it. Sometimes in very wild positions its tough. Most of the the time this reinforces principles of develpoment pawn structure piece dynamism and I find it rubs off on my understanding. One proviso - if you take on too many games a lot of this wont work! Facing a much lower rated player you have to do research and prepare something - trotting down the main line poisened pawn Najdorf may not be the way to go. A lot of top players go for catalan and english openings hoping to utilise their chess knowledge and research. One thing is for sure always playing the best move of your engine is going to drop 1/2 points and lose some games and that includes Rybka. Finally all this stuff is done by all the top professionals in the otb chess. One example I faced the line that Kramnik got crushed with by Topalov playing b5 and f4. I looked at the game notes and databases and couldnt find a good response 45 minutes with fritz and I cracked it and in the process gained some insight into the opening. In fact its a harmless variation if you know the antidote but over the board one slip and Kram was toasted
Andrew Stephenson (2007-09-13 06:35:12)
Ratings
Hi Phillip I don't know what "an unsynchronised rating system" is. However at the rate of play 40/20 for example I am not sure I would be able to improve so much on the engines first choices. At the free style tournament stand alones do pretty well. If I needed 45 minutes to find one best move in the Topalov Kramnik line..... So yes a centaur can easily have a higher rating than the engine(s) he is using at cc time rates (on the same hardware). For one thing the centaur can use different engines and for another its a bit like taking a move back all the time and pushing past any horizon limitations plus there is the restrictions of opening books that all engines have. However I am not going to play my own cc games against Fritz 10 (Fritz 9 in my case)by giving it 1 day or even 10 minutes per move because I am not motivated - you need the human element for that. Hope that helps.
Albert H. Alberts (2007-09-18 17:04:14)
110 best chess moves ever
All: Dutch GM Tim Krabbe has compiled "110 best chess moves ever".I computerevaluated them.Most of them are spotted by machines and if not: they are refuted. Notably nr. Topalov-Shirov and a classic 1960 Spasski-Bronstein.www.howtofoolfritz.com. Albert Alberts Amsterdam.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-10-20 05:17:30)
Rybka 3, Fritz 11, Shredder 11...
Rybka 3, Fritz 11, Shredder 11, also Chessmaster 11... new versions of many engines are announced or coming (Fritz 11 - end of november).
It is said in computer chess forums that one secret of Rybka may be "table of exchanges", in other words knowledge, added to a 'simple' & very fast engine typically like Fruit. Many now think that other engines may catch Rybka in a while, but we might have to wait for the thirteen series at least IMO :)
Anyway, the battle continues... Also waiting for Hiarcs 12 !
Thibault de Vassal (2007-11-03 05:26:32)
Free engines to download
I see that Fruit 2.3.x and Toga II 1.3.x series (and of course Rybka 1.0) are still the best free chess engines to download, quite near Chessbase engines strength.
Shredder 11 seems to be sold with Fritz 10 interface and old 2007 chess games database, a good reason to buy forthcoming Fritz 11 ;) .. I assume that Chessbase will focus on the interface and Chessbase 11 (or.. 10, 12 ?! hard to follow)
Which is the current best free engine to help in correspondence chess games in your opinion ?
Joseph Thomas (2007-11-04 04:19:15)
Deep Shredder 11
There seems to a good amount of improvement in engine strength. I have a copy of Shredder 11 UCI, but I haven't had it long enough to really test its strength on my own. Apparently according to the CCRL it cracked the top five programs and should be about equal to Zappa Mexico. I wonder where Fritz and Junior 11 will end up?
Thibault de Vassal (2007-11-19 02:50:40)
Fritz 11
Fritz 11 is now available... I just noticed that it already has a 2914 rating (single processor) at CEGT 4/40 (2 GHz), better than Shredder 11 and Hiarcs 11.1, but not better than Rybka 1.01, to be continued as this time control is usually not the best one for Fritz.
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_4_Ratinglist/40_4_AllVersion/rangliste.html
Thibault de Vassal (2007-12-12 05:36:58)
Fritz 11 near Rybka 2.3.2a
I just discovered the CEGT 40/20 new rating for Fritz 11, it confirms that Rybka will have serious opponents soon !
CEGT 40/20 : Rybka 2.3.2a - 2971, Fritz 11 - 2921 (50 points diff. only)
Waiting for Fritz 11 rating in CEGT 40/120 rating list.
Thibault de Vassal (2007-12-20 18:44:21)
Kramnik vs. Anand 2008
Vladimir Kramnik, Viswanathan Anand, FIDE & UEP (Universal Event Promotion) have come to an agreement : The next FIDE World Chess Championship will take place from October 11 to 30, 2008 in the National Art Gallery in Bonn (Germany). Reigning world champion Viswanathan Anand will play challenger Vladimir Kramnik in a twelve-game match. The prize fund is 1.5 Million Euro, the main sponsor is an industrial enterprise, Evonik Industries, located in Essen (Germany) which was the exclusive sponsor of the 2006 World Chess Challenge between Vladimir Kramnik and the most famous chess program distributed by Chessbase, Deep Fritz.
Any predictions ? .. (may Anand lose his title before that date ?)
Garvin Gray (2007-12-25 05:47:53)
Chess 960 possible problem
Nice Xmas present for you Thibault- a possible server problem :P
Not sure if I am doing something wrong or it is the server.
When I download a Chess 960 game and attempt to start engine analysis through fritz interface, I have only just realised that the downloaded game does not recognise 'Chess 960' or even the traditional version castling.
Only when I set the position up and select the four castling options will the game start analysing castling options.
Mladen Jankovic (2007-12-25 21:37:22)
re:
FEN used in encoding the starting position does not include castling information. You can add manually "KQkq" in the FEN line at the end, in the PGN file.
Fritz uses a non-standard encoding of the castling rights for Chess 960, with starting positions of Rooks not on A and H files.
Fritz should recognize castling rights, but the information is not included in the file. This is most likely an accidental omission, or it might have been done to avoid messing with X-FEN and the non-standard Fritz solution.
At this rate I'm becoming a helpdesk. :?
Garvin Gray (2008-01-04 17:37:57)
new engine
Considering buying one of the single processor engines.
Already have Rybka 2.3.2a and fritz 8 plus a few freebie engines.
Recommendations? I have looked at the cegt tables and cant see Shredder 11 there. I see Deep Shredder 11 there alot, but not just Shredder 11.
Have I read the tables incorrectly or is Shredder 11 just poorly rated in the cegt tables?
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2008-01-05 00:23:04)
Shredder 11
In CEGT they tested Deep Shredder using 1 CPU. There is ranked 3rd in 40/4 and 40/20 behind Rybka and Fritz 11. In CCRL 40/40 is second behind Rybka and just ahead of Fritz and Zappa Mexico. (All of this in 1CPU)
Wayne Lowrance (2008-01-21 05:06:18)
Making a database of my Ficgs games
can this be done in the fritz format ? if not may I make this a suggestion for next up date Wayne
Garvin Gray (2008-01-21 08:02:03)
database
I have a database of my played and ongoing games in fritz. I just download each game after a few moves and add it to the database and then keep refreshing the game each time a move is made to keep the position and my analysis current.
Mladen Jankovic (2008-01-21 20:32:58)
Inport from pgn?
Why not simply click on the computer icon in my games, click on all games, where you get all your games in pgn, copy-paste all of the games to a plain pgn text file, and import from that.
This is just a guess that seems reasonable, as I do not own Fritz, however it should be supported the way I've described it.
Andrew Stephenson (2008-05-03 06:22:50)
Arena
I have loaded Rybka into Arena and it seems to be performing at a superchetged rate - unfortunately I cannot make sense of its analysis out put. I am used to a Fritz environment where you can select how many different moves it displays and it ranks them and assisgnsa value + 1.1 etc. it does the same for other uci engines. In arena hoe do I get this kind of output??
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-19 21:54:37)
Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Junior 12
While Rybka 2.3.2a w32 1CPU/mp still leads CEGT rating lists, Fritz 11 is now only about 50 elo points behind...
CEGT 40/20 (AMD 4200+)
Rybka 2.3.2a w32 1CPU - 2966
Fritz 11 - 2913
Naum 3.1 w32 1CPU - 2890
Deep Shredder 11 w32 1CPU - 2890
Hiarcs 12 SP 1CPU - 2869
Toga II 1.4.2JD 1CPU - 2864
Fruit 2.4 Beta A w32 1CPU - 2864
Zappa Mexico II w32 1CPU - 2844
Any predictions on the future ratings of Rybka 3 & Chessbase engines : Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Junior 12, Hiarcs 13, Zappa or other free engines ?
I can't find a rating for Junior 11 in CEGT rating lists, does anyone know it ?
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-20 17:40:27)
New chess eninges champion
Maybe the surprising Naum, but I wouldn't be so surprised if Fritz 12 (let's say Fritz 13) finally catches the king Rybka.
Benjamin Block (2008-05-25 14:54:33)
Draw
I can test with my fritz 11 and it will be draw.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-05-26 12:19:28)
Rybka vs Rybka
Ok, we all know that engines are not free will. With no randomizer, the regular start position, "normal" settings (do not avoid a draw at any price, regular values) and a large opening book [which is a quite good randomizer itself], I'm quite sure statistics after 500,000 games will look like 50% if Rybka 3 #1 & #2 play as both White & Black, 51 to 53% if Rybka 3 #1 play as White only while Rybka 3 #2 play as Black only, about the same (but not exactly) for Fritz 11 or other engines.
Wayne Lowrance (2008-07-02 17:26:08)
my games copied to Fritz database
How can you do this ? Thanks Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2008-07-03 01:03:17)
my games copied to Fritz database
Sorry Thibault, I cannot make this work, too dense I guess. Thanks for trying to help me. Maybe you can make a site up date to do this. Wayne
Wayne Lowrance (2008-07-03 23:48:22)
mygames copied to fritz data base
sounds like it, but I may not understand it. is...."your games in fritz database" thank you Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2008-07-18 14:24:09)
Chessbase Deep Rybka 3
Chessbase, who distributes the best chess engines (Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs, Zappa...) now also distributes the little fish : Rybka 3 and Deep Rybka 3 are available.
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4772
Rybka 3 (by Vasik Rajlich) is the reigning computer world champion and should be at least 80 points stronger than the previous version Rybka 2.3.2
Did anyone test it already ? What about the improvements (particularly Monte Carlo Analysis in endgames) ?
Rybka 3 book with 3,387,966 positions (260 MB) is also available.
Thibault de Vassal (2008-08-16 12:29:32)
Questions to Xavier Pichelin
Xavier Pichelin is 1st FICGS chess champion after beating IM Gino Figlio in the first candidates final, he accepted to talk about his match, the tournament, his views around correspondence chess, chess engines and so on... The most important part may be he'll defend his title against the winner of the 2nd candidates final :)
Unfortunately, the complete interview is in french only as he doesn't speak english, but if someone finds a good translator (if possible better than Babelfish), he may post it in this thread. Thanks !
- Bonjour Xavier et tout d'abord félicitations pour ta victoire dans le match qui t'opposait au MI (ICCF) Gino Figlio [Pérou] dans la finale des candidats. Tu devais éviter à tout prix la nulle dans toutes les parties, finalement les noirs t'ont porté chance, comment expliques-tu ce résultat ?
Xavier : Bonjour, merci pour les félicitations. C'est vrai qu'en cas de nulles pour toutes les parties, le règlement indique Figlio Vainqueur en cas d'égalité avec victoire(s) et défaite(s) je remporte le match. Donc il fallait que je prenne des risques en attaquant et c'est avec les noirs que je l'ai fait car je pensais que Gino, dans ces parties, attendrait sans prendre de risques pour assurer les nulles.
- Peux-tu nous décrire la manière dont tu as abordé ce match contre Gino et son déroulement au fur et à mesure des différentes phases du jeu ?
X : C'est assez simple, dans ce match je n'étais pas du tout favori car avec plus de 200 points ELO FICGS en ma défaveur, et Gino titré Maître International avec plus de 2480 point ELO ICCF, je pensais que je n'allais pas résister sur 8 parties simultanées car sur une partie tout est possible mais sur 8 parties... c'était pour moi un grand défi ! Pour le déroulement du jeu j'ai joué la diversité sur mes débuts avec les blancs 4 parties 4 coups différents : 1.e4 1.d4 1.c4 1.Cf3. Gino a fait de même : 1.e4 1.d4 1.Cf3 1.Cc3. Ce qui m'a fait douter aussi car 1.Cc3 m'a surpris, je pensais qu'il avait prévu un début tonitruand et c'est là que je me suis dit qu'il fallait que je prenne des risques avec les noirs. Au fur et à mesure des différentes phases du jeu j'ai assuré les nulles des positions équilibrées pour me concacrer a deux parties avantageuses dont une avec les blancs et une avec les noirs pour au moins faire la différence dans une partie pour assurer la victoire. Et en fin de compte c'est 3 victoires qui me reviennent, ce qui me paraissait impossible étant donnée la qualité du jeu de Gino joué sur ce site pour arriver à la finale des candidats du championnat.
- Tu as réalisé pendant le championnat un parcours sans faute, aucune défaite à signaler, tu affiches également des statistiques stratosphériques à 78% contre une moyenne elo à près de 2200, quel est ton secret ?
X : Mon secret? Je n'ai pas de secret. Si j'avais un secret je ne le dévoilerais pas sinon je ne gagnerais plus ! Je pense que j'ai eu un petit peu de chance car il s'en est fallu de peu que je ne sois pas qualifié au stage 3 (robin-round final) car il y avait 3 joueurs à égalité et j'ai eu l'avantage du classement du départ de ce tournoi comme l'indique le règlement. Quant à mes statistiques, c'est aussi grâce aux erreurs de mes adversaires qui m'ont permis de gagner des parties équilibrées.
- Que penses-tu du système mi-ko, mi-toutes-rondes du championnat FICGS et de ses départages inédits lors des matchs en 8 parties ? Quelles modifications y apporterais-tu ?
X : Très bonne question ! Le système mi-ko pour moi est un peu trop rapide car un coup par jour c'est des heures d'analyses pour exploiter une position compliquée, ce qui est difficile quand on à plusieurs parties en cours. Surtout quand on travaille. C'est peut-être aussi grâce à cette cadence que mes adversaires, faute de temps, ont fait des imprécisions sur certaines postions ou exploité mes erreurs. Mais cette cadence a un avantage par rapport aux cadences ICCF qui est de 5 jours par coup, c'est que les parties durent 5 fois moins longtemps ! Le départage inédit des matchs en 8 parties est excellent, obliger le favori à assurer tous les matchs nulles pour gagner ce duel et sinon d'obtenir une victoire supplémentaire contre le challenger est un mode très bien pensé. La modification que je pourrais y apporter est peut-être la gestion du temps qui est rapide pour un système de jeu par serveur. Peut-être augmenter l'horloge de départ de 15 jours, soit de commencer avec 45 jours contre 30 en ce moment. Et aussi la possibilité des prendre des vacances uniquement sur le tournoi en cours afin de gérer les autres parties du site. Par exemple prendre 7 jours de vacances sur un tournoi d'échecs du championnat et pouvoir jouer un tournoi de Big Chess, de Go ou un autre tournoi d'échecs pendant ces vacances. Pouvoir choisir une date de début de vacances à l'avance serait également appréciable.
- Pourquoi t'être investi dans les échecs par correspondance ? T'apportent-ils d'autres satisfactions par rapport aux échecs classiques et au blitz ?
X : Je préfère les échecs par correspondance par rapport au temps. Car les échecs classiques se jouent souvent le week-end, à une heure précise et souvent en déplacement pour effectuer un tournoi. L'avantage, pour moi, des échecs par correspondance est que je puisse me connecter à n'importe quelle heure pour jouer mes coups, ce qui me permet, par exemple, de faire des repas de famille le week-end et le soir tard de jouer un coup, ce qui n'est pas possible aux échecs classiques.
- Tu as su ne pas céder à la tentation et te limiter à jouer un nombre très raisonnable de parties sur le site tout le long du championnat, penses-tu néanmoins que les échecs par correspondance soient addictifs et à quel point ? Ont-ils des répercussions sur ta vie de tous les jours ?
X : Oui ! Limiter mon nombre de parties en cours est pour moi essentiel pour essayer d'avoir des parties de qualité plutôt que de quantité. Avoir beaucoup de parties en simultanée est quand même une chose très difficile à gérer ! C'est peut-être la clé de ma victoire contre Figlio, j'ai regardé ses parties en cours, il en avait pas loin de 90 sur le site de l'ICCF, cela a pu se ressentir sur son temps d'analyse consacré à nos 8 parties sur FICGS. Sur la vie de tous les jours les répercussions sont familiales car il est vrai que je passe plus de temps à analyser les parties et moins temps avec ma famille, ce qui est assez difficile pour moi. Mais quand les résultats sont là je ne regrette pas !
- Que penses-tu de la place actuelle des moteurs d'analyse (Rybka, Shredder, Fritz et autres) dans les échecs par correspondance ? Quelles sont pour toi les qualités complémentaires essentielles du joueur par correspondance, devenu centaure avec la machine pour jambes ?
X : Les moteurs d'analyses dans les échecs par correspondances sont utilisés par 95% des joueurs... Maintenant il faut s'adapter et savoir utiliser ces machines à calculer. Car jouer simplement le meilleur coup de Rybka 3, de Fritz 12 ou Hiarcs 12 sans réfléchir mentalement mène à la nulle si l'adversaire fait de même ou possiblement à perdre si l'adversaire se donne la peine de réfléchir en les utilisant également. En sachant que lorsqu'on est dans le milieu de partie ces logiciels vous donnent souvent 4 à 5 coups evalués de manière semblable, et c'est là qu'il faut choisir le bon coup alors que celui-ci n'est même pas forcément cité par le moteur d'analyse...
- Tu joues désormais au Big Chess sur le site, curiosité ou intérêt ? Que penses-tu de cette version étrange des échecs ?
X : Par curiosité et par amusement et je pense que Rybka 3 ne joue pas encore au Big Chess ! Cette version est quasiment inédite je ne connaissais pas cette forme de jeu d'échecs auparavant donc celui qui a inventé ce jeu a très bien fait ! A propos c'est moi qui vous pose une question sur le Big chess... Y a t-il possiblité de roquer avec ce jeu si oui comment? (NDLR : Non, il est impossible de roquer au Big Chess)
- Et enfin la question que tout le monde se pose, particulièrement François et Wolfgang qui disputent la deuxième finale des candidats, penses-tu pouvoir défendre ton titre l'an prochain ? :)
X : Bien sûr ! Je défendrai le titre ! J'aimerais si possible savoir la date et la cadence du match. Et je souhaite à François et Wolfgang une belle finale ! Je dois faire honneur à cette compétition qui est bien organisée !
- Le match devrait pouvoir débuter durant la première semaine de janvier 2009, la cadence sera à nouveau de 30 jours et 1 jour supplémentaire par coup. Merci pour tes réponses, et encore bravo pour cette belle performance !
X : Merci ! Et à bientôt ! Bonne continuation à tous et bonnes parties !
Benjamin Block (2008-08-18 08:52:18)
Try to translate!
I think it is something like that?
Hello Xavier and first congratulations on your victory in the match which t'opposait the MI (ICCF) Gino Figlio [Peru] in the final candidates. You should avoid at all costs void in all parties, finally brought blacks t'ont chance, how do you explain this result? X
avier: Hello, thank you for the congratulations. It is true that in case of zero for all parties, the regulation states Figlio winner in the event of a tie with victory (s) and defeat (s) I won the match. So I had to take risks in attacking and it is with blacks that I did it because I thought Gino, in these parts, expected without taking risks to ensure the void.
-- Can you tell us about how you approached this match against Gino and his conduct as different phases of the game?
X: It's pretty simple, in this match I was not at all favorite because with more than 200 ELO points FICGS to my disadvantage, and Gino titled Master International, with more than 2480 ELO ICCF point, I thought I n ' not resist going on 8 simultaneous games as a part everything is possible but on 8 parts ... it was for me a great challenge! In the course of the game I played diversity in my beginnings with white 4 parts 4 different strokes: 1.e4 1.d4 1.c4 1.Cf3. Gino did the same: 1.e4 1.d4 1.Cf3 1.Cc3. What made me doubt also because 1.Cc3 surprised me, I thought he had planned an early tonitruand and this is where I said that I should take risks with blacks. As the different phases of the game I assured the zero positions balanced for me concacrer deal has two parts, one with blanks and one with the black for at least make a difference in part to ensure victory. And ultimately it 3 victories me back, which seemed impossible given the quality of the game Gino played on this site to reach the final of the championship candidates.
-- You have made during a championship course without fault, no losses to report, you also posters statistics stratospheric to 78% against an average elo to about 2200, what's your secret?
X: My secret? I have no secret. If I had a secret I do not dévoilerais if I do win more! I think I got a little lucky because he is required by little I am not qualified to stage 3 (round-robin final) because there were 3 players equally and I had l 'advantage classifying the departure of this tournament as indicated by the regulation. As for my statistics, it is also thanks to the errors of my opponents who allowed me to win parts in balance.
-- What do you think the system mid-ko, semi-all-round championship FICGS and its new départages in matches in 8 parties? What changes would it be?
X: Very good question! The system mid-ko for me is a little too fast since a coup by day is overtime analyses to operate a complicated position, which is difficult when several parties in progress. Especially when you work. It is perhaps also through this pace that my opponents lack of time, made some uncertainty regarding postions or exploited my mistakes. But the pace has an advantage over the cadences ICCF which is 5 days a coup is that the parties had to 5 times less time! The départage new games to 8 parts is excellent, forcing the favorite to ensure all matches to nil win this duel and otherwise obtain an additional victory against the challenger is a very well thought out. The amendment that I could make is perhaps time management which is fast for a game system per server. Perhaps increase the clock starting 15 days, starting with 45 against 30 days at this time. And also the possibility of taking a vacation only on the tournament underway to manage other parts of the site. For example, take 7 days vacation on a chess tournament championship and be able to play a tournament Big Chess, Go or another chess tournament during the holidays. Being able to choose a start date of holidays in advance would also be appreciated.
-- Why t'être invested in correspondence chess? T'apportent there are other rewards compared to traditional chess and blitz?
X: I prefer chess match over time. For the classical chess is often play the weekend at a specific time and often on the move to make a tournament. The advantage for me, correspondence chess is that I can connect at any time to play my shots, which allows me, for example, making family meals on weekends and late at night to play a coup, which is not possible chess classics.
-- You knew not to succumb to the temptation and you only play a very reasonable number of parties on the site throughout the championship, do you think nevertheless that the correspondence chess are addictive and at what point? Did they affect your everyday life?
X: Yes! Limiting my number of games in progress is essential for me to try to have parts of quality rather than quantity. Have a lot of parts simultaneously is still something very difficult to manage! This is perhaps the key to my victory against Figlio, I watched its games in progress, it had nearly 90 on the site of the ICCF, it has been felt on his time devoted to analysis our parties on FICGS 8. On the everyday life impacts are family because it is true that I spend more time to analyze the parts and less time with my family, which is quite difficult for me. But when the results are there I do not regret!
-- What do you think about the current position of engines for analysis (Rybka, Shredder, Fritz and others) in correspondence chess? What are the qualities you complementary core player by correspondence, now centaur with the machine for legs?
X: The engines of analyses in chess matches are used by 95% of players ... Now we must adapt and learn to use these machines to calculate. Car simply play the best shot of Rybka 3, Fritz 12 or Hiarcs 12 mentally without thinking leads to zero if the opponent does the same or possibly lose if the opponent gives himself the trouble to consider using them as well. Knowing that when you're in the middle part of these programs give you often 4 to 5 strokes assessed similarly, and that is that we must choose the right time when it is not even necessarily cited by the analysis engine ...
-- You get the Big Chess now on the site, curiosity or interest? What do you think of this strange version of chess?
X: For curiosity and fun and I think Rybka 3 is not yet the Big Chess! This version is almost unprecedented I did not know this form of chess before therefore the one who invented this game was very well done! About I'm the one who asks you a question on the Big chess ... Is there possibility of castle with this game if so, how? (Editor's note: No, it is impossible to castle the Big Chess)
-- And finally the question that everyone arises, especially Francis and Wolfgang disputing that the second final candidates, think you can defend your title next year? :)
X: of course! I will defend the title! I would like if possible to know the timing and pace of the match. And I wish Francis and Wolfgang a beautiful final! I must honor in this competition which is well organized!
-- The match should be able to start during the first week of January 2009, the pace will again 30 days and 1 additional day by coup. Thank you for your answers, and even congratulations for this excellent performance!
X: Thank you! And see you! Bonne continuation to all and good parties!
Andrew Stephenson (2008-08-18 16:06:16)
translation
I will have a go off the top of my head at giving a sense of the interview in english (I dont know the phrase tonitruand but I am guessing it means dynamic!)?: Hi Xavier and first of all congratulations on your success in the candidates final match against IM (ICCF) Gino Figlio [Peru] You had to avoid drawing all the games and finally you succeded with the black pieces. How did that happen? Xavier: Hi thank you. Its true that if all the games had been drawn then under the rules Figlio would have won whereas if the match was drawn but with a win and loss I would win. Because of this I had to take risks and attack. It was with Black that I did this because I thought that Gino would play safely to be sure of a draw. - Tell us how you approched the match and how the different phases of the game went x: Its quite simple, I was not the favorite I have 200 ELO less on FICGS and Gino is an IM on ICCF with a 2480 rating. I did not think I could survive 8 games at once - in a single game anything is possible but 8 games .... it was a big challenge for me! In the openings I chose 4 different moves 1 e4 1 d4 1 c4 1 Nf3 Gino chose 1 e4 1 d4 1 c4 1 Nc3 I was surpised by 1 Nc3 because I was expecting dynamic openings and it was then that I decided I must take some risks with black. I kept most of the games balanced with a draw in hand and concentrated on 2 games 1 white and 1 black to get a result. In the end I got 3 wins which seemed an impossibility given the quality of the games Gino had played on this site to reach the final. - you have not lost any games in the championship and you have fantastic statistics 78% against an average elo of about 2200. What is your secret? x: My secret? I havent any secret and if I did I would not say because I would not win anymore! I think I have been a bit lucky because in the the Round Robin final there were 3 of us on the same score and I went through under the rules because of my rating. As for my statistics I was helped by mistakes by opponents who allowed me to win some drawn games. - What do you think of the system for the FICGS championship (round robin and knock out matches)and what changes would you make? x: Very good question. The matches are a bit too fast for me - 1 day per move when there are hours of analysis needed to exploit a complicated position its difficult when you have several games running Particularly if you are working. Perhaps that is why my opponents have made errors or failed to exploit my mistakes. But this time limit has an advantage over ICCF where it is 5 days per move the games here are 5 times quicker! Having 8 game matches is an excellent idea and obliging the favorite to draw all the games and the challenger to get a at least 1 victory is very well thought out. The change that I would suggest is to have 15 days extra starting time that is 45 days at the start instead of 30 and also the possibilty to take holidays for tournaments for example take 7 days for championship games and to be able to play big chess go or another chess tournament during the holiday. To be able to choose the start of a holiday in advance would also be good. - Why do you like cc and how does it compare to blitz and normal chess? x: I prefer cc because of the time factor. Classical chess is often played at the week end at a fixed time and you have to travel to the tournament. The advantage for me at cc is that I can connect at any time to play a move which allows me for example to have meals with the family at the weekend. Late night moves for example are not possible at classical chess. - You limited the number of your games on the site to a reasonable amount throughout the championship. Do you think nonetheless that cc is addictive? Does it affect your daily life? x: Yes! Limiting the number of my games is essential to try to have games of quality not quantity. Having a lot of games going at the same time is something very difficult to handle. It is perhaps the key to my victory against Figlio - I looked at his games - he had not less than 80 games going on at ICCF this must have affected the amount of time he could spend analysing his 8 games at FICGS. The effects on daily life are felt by the family because the reality is if I spend more time analysing the games I spend less time with the family. Thats difficult for me. But when the results come I dont regret it! - What do you think of the role of chess engines (Rybka Fritz etc)in cc. What are for you the important skills of a cc player - to supplement the machine? x: Chess engines are used in cc by 95% of players. You have to adapt yourself and know how to use the engines. To play just the best move of Rybka 3 Fritz 12 or Hiracs 12 without thinking leads to a draw if your opponent does the same or to a loss if your opponent is thinking. You have to choose bewteen 4 or 5 moves with a similer evaluation from the engine during a game and sometimes the best move is not among these. - You play Big chess. Interest or curiosity? What do you think of this strange version of chess? X : Curiosity and amusement and I think Rrybka 3 cannot yet play Big Chess! This version is new and I did not know it and the inventor has done a good job! By the way I would like to ask is it possible to castle at Big Chess? [No its not possible] - Finally the question that everyone is asking particularly Francois and Wolfgang who are contesting the 2nd candidates final. Do think you will be able to defend your title next year? :) x: Definitely I will defend the title I would like to know if possible the date and time limits for the match. I wish Francois and Wolfgang a great match! I would also like to express my appreciation for this tournament which has been well organised! - the match should start in the first week in January next year the time limit will be 30 days plus 1 day per move. Thank you for your answers and once again congratulations on a great performance. x: Thank you. Cheers. Best wishes to everyone and good games!
Wayne Lowrance (2008-09-29 01:07:57)
copy games/s to *.cbh in fritz
can it be done ? thank you Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2008-09-29 14:08:22)
Fritz GUI
Hi Wayne,
I have no doubt it can be done, but I can't say how... Anyone ?
Benjamin Block (2008-09-29 15:06:47)
Copy game to fritz?
If you mean in fritz openingsbook you can do this.
You do this in frtitz 11 i just have that and fritz 6
Start the program fritz 11
Press "Edit"
Press "openingsbook" and "Improtgames..."
Now you choose the databas you want to use in this question you want the game from ficgs. I don´t rember the file name. But i think you can found it.
Josef Riha (2008-09-29 19:32:36)
Hallo Wayne,
it's a little difficult, I believe.
Start Fritz and then change to the Database(the very right icon in the iconbar). Then click New Database. In the dialogue enter the name, e.g.: FICGS.cbh and open it. Remember the directory displayed at top.
Now go to your ficgs site and download your games in that directory.
After this load one game after the other and save them as New Game. That's all.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2008-09-30 19:29:45)
Maybe use Chessbase 8-9-10 or light
The problem is Fritz is not designed as database you have more flexibility using Chessbase. After downloading the game ( it is saved as pgn ) You need to open that game and choose File-Save As- Here you are given the choice to save the game to a database of your choice, for example, lets create My FICGS games, open Chessbase, File-New Database-and create your database in any place you want, generally My documents-Chessbase-etc. So after you have created your database open the downloaded game , again I suggest open it with Chessbase, and choose File-Save As- and put it in the database we created My FICGS games, voila. In Fritz creating a database takes 2 more clicks. First go to File-Open database or F12 then in that window choose File-New database or Ctrl+X , and the the same procedure as above. Choose your path , name it, then open your downloaded game(s)and Save As, choose the database of your preferences. Even in chessbase light this is possible, but the number of games in each database is restricted to 50,000 I believe. Hope this helps
Thibault de Vassal (2008-10-21 17:54:17)
Pre-arranged or not
... that's the eternal question. Let's see how the match finishes, I doubt to see Anand winning by +2 or more with no ambiguity, unlike the last Kramnik versus Deep Fritz match. We will see.
Benjamin Block (2008-11-05 15:14:48)
Build openingsbook in fritz 11.
1.You need to extract the files first.
2.Start the program fritz 11.
3.Press edit->Openingsbook->Import games.
4.Choose the extracktet files.
5.Take 1-????? if you want all. ????=the highest nummber. (you get it in the start.
6.Choose how many moves you want in every game. MAX 100.
7.Press "ok".
You can say thanks by giving me the links you download the games.
Benjamin Block (2008-11-06 17:49:39)
You mean this site?
If you mean this site the answer is no. But you can filter the games in fritz.
1.Start fritz.
2.Press File->Open->Databas (F12)
3.Press File->Open->Databas (ctrl+o)and choose file with the games you want to filter.
4.Now you have the games. Press Edit->Filter games... (ctrl+f)
5.Now you can choose every things you want ;)
If you don´t understand i can send you one step by step on you´re e-mail.
Good luck and have fun
Ben Milton (2008-11-22 18:13:24)
...
Also is there a way for me to increase my chess rating? since i am a centaur player using Rybka 3, fritz, zappa, with strong opening books such as perfect 15 (tuned) and at this rating many of my opponents are not even using engines and it the games are not challenging. Regards
Thibault de Vassal (2008-12-06 15:21:14)
Rybka 4, Fritz 12, Hiarcs 13 & future...
What about a small point on chess engines ?
A few months ago, it was quite predictable to me that Chessbase engines (well, Rybka 3 actually also is a Chessbase engine now) like Fritz, Shredder & Hiarcs were dedicated to catch Rybka in the computer chess rating lists.
The current CEGT 40/20 (AMD 4200+) rating list shows :
Rybka 3 x64 4CPU 3202
Rybka 2.3.2a x64 4CPU 3079
Deep Fritz 11 4CPU 3031
Zappa Mexico II x64 4CPU 3022
Shredder WM Edition Bonn 4CPU 3011
Naum 3.1 x64 4CPU 3011
Hiarcs 12 MP 4CPU 2968
In other words, Rybka 3 always has a quite large advance, but all other ones filled the major part of the gap with Rybka 2.3.2, including free chess engines. What future for chess engines now ? What kind of improvement can we expect from Rybka 4, Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Hiarcs 13 and co. ?
IMO one future version in theory may reach 3600 or more in such rating lists (which probably doesn't mean anything compared to the human rating list) but the interest of programmers may now decrease in this race where efforts/money can be compared to the grandmasters involvement to enter the elo top 100... What do you think ?
Thibault de Vassal (2008-12-15 14:48:44)
Hydra engine
The Hydra engine only has absolutely no interest but used on a dedicated hardware, its level & style of play may probably be compared to a quite old Fritz version.
Wayne Lowrance (2009-01-05 18:06:24)
Rybka 4 Fritz 12, Hiarcs 13 & future
It is my thought that Vas is running close to empty on improvements from Rybka 3 to Rybka 4. Rybka 3 was a huge, huge improvment.Other programmers are getting closer, specifically Naum. I sorta think Vas is looking a ways in the future when cluster comps are taking hold. Before Rybka 3 release there was a lot of excitement about Monte Carlo, but Rybka 3 Monte Carlo is not effective overall, It is just a novelity as far as my evaluation is concerned. Maybe too, like cluster MC will have a place. Correspondence chess players sh ould be delighted with Rybka three. A few minor improvements can be made, but wont improve ELO much, such as deep evaluation pv listing. Right no for CC player the current PV thing is crazy. Well nice topic Wayne
Ben Milton (2009-01-06 11:08:51)
Question
Would someone please tell how to be a strong centaur player? I have been playing online computer assisted chess for 2 years now and still have not learned how to be stronger than rybka 3 by itslef. I use Fritz11 GUI. Any reccommendations? would be appreciated
Ben Milton (2009-01-06 15:24:33)
Thanks
Thank you very much, but the problem is even though i might know what the opponent might play, i still dont know what move to play so it leads to a trap, the best i can do is to go as deep as possible. Also i heard a few things about "IDeA" which is a tool centaurs use to go deeper but unfortunately Fritz 11 does not have that...Any how if youd be willing we can have the games and i am willing to give you all my e-points (12) if you win and if you dont i dont want any e-points in return. I jus want to see the results. How does it sound?
Tom Smith (2009-01-12 21:40:28)
Re: Marc
By allowing engine use, the site is allowing players to have the computer engine make certain moves for them or indeed play an entire game for them, I can play fritz or any engine for the same effect, I wish to play against humans who play moves themselves rather than get an engine to make moves for them, how is that not cheating? If you dont see that as cheating then I dont know what to say, I think this is a fair complaint and does not quite deserve being told "go away if you dont like it", I am simply suprised a site allows it thats all.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-18 18:20:34)
SSDF rating list
Current SSDF ratings for the best chess engines running on 2GB Q6600 2.4 GHz are :
Deep Rybka 3 x64 - 3226
Deep Fritz 11 - 3086
Zappa Mexico II x64 - 3064
Naum 3.1 x64 - 3046
Deep Shredder 11 - 3043
Deep Hiarcs 12 x64 - 3033
Hiarcs 11.2 MP - 3008
Deep Junior 10.1 - 2981
By the way, how long before a new Deep Junior version...
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-24 14:51:22)
Chess computers & nodes by seconds
What about a thread on chess dedicated computers... dual-core, quad-core or even 10 years old tired processor ?
It could be interesting to gather some informations here on hardware evolution by comparing the speed of chess engines [nodes by second], specifying the operating system & the program that runs the engines (Arena, Chessbase, Fritz 11 interface & so on...)
Wayne Lowrance (2009-01-25 07:35:22)
chess computers
take a look here, maybe this is interesting.http://www.jens.tauchclub-krems.at/diverses/Schach/fritz9_benchmarks.html
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-26 00:49:52)
Rybka vs. Fritz 9
I suppose this is normal, as you probably use Rybka 3 (looks like its number of nodes per second doesn't mean anything btw). These tests have been made with Fritz 9, right ?
Don Groves (2009-01-26 01:52:41)
Not Fritz...
No, my tests are with Hiarcs.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-01-26 20:07:55)
Hiarcs vs. Rybka
Yeah, the same... the number of nodes is really low with Hiarcs. Anyway, the engine must be the same one than in the tests (so Fritz 9) to be significant.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-03-15 18:17:32)
Anand vs. Computer
I don't remember Anand playing a match against a computer like Deep Blue, Deep Fritz, Junior, Rybka & so on... But it is quite possible to find a few games like Anand vs. Fritz 3, 4 or other old programs in chess databases IMO.
Anyway, it is quite hard for me to answer your question as I still think the world is divided into 2 categories, Garry Kasparov and those who dig :) (The Good, The Bad & The Ugly, of course) .. More seriously, Anand is probably one of these 4 or 5 best players of all times, but who may be quite irregular (or just human), unlike Kasparov. Tal was another genius, maybe more a gambler, but none (Topalov, Anand, Kramnik...) ever reached the level of Garry Kasparov in my opinion.
I'm not sure Anand will be interested in losing to a chess computer, particularly as even Fritz is getting stronger & stronger.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-05-18 21:43:40)
Rybka 3 wins the 17th WCCC
Rybka 3 is still the king of computer chess, she just won the 17th WCCC tournament on an Intel Xeon W5580 / 3.2GHz x 8 with 8 points ahead of Junior, Deep Sjeng & Shredder (6.5 points).. Hiarcs finished the tournament with 6 points.
That's a pity, Fritz did not participate, once more.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-08-10 12:46:38)
Poker engine
I'm not sure if there can be exactly a "poker engine" like Fritz is a chess engine, able to play any situation... I know that there is poker engines for certain poker rooms but in order to play here you may only find sites that offer to calculate the odds for each hand, but it won't take in account the coins & points you have, which are very important also, so I'm afraid it does not exist :)
Thibault de Vassal (2009-09-27 01:40:59)
Fritz 12, your opinion
From Chessbase news, Fritz 12 will be out on October 7, 2009 (new opening book by Alex Kure)
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=467
Did anyone lucky test it already ?
What about the interface & engine ? A serious opponent for Rybka 3 ?
William Taylor (2009-09-27 12:14:34)
Fritz 12
I haven't tested it, but I'd be surprised if it was a match for Rybka.
Garvin Gray (2009-09-27 12:55:35)
different design and direction
I thought that the fritz designers had taken the decision a while back to focus more on features for the program rather than just trying to make fritz as strong as possible against other engines.
So I would be surprised if it was as good as rybka in competitions.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-09-28 17:39:42)
Fritz 12 vs. Rybka 3
I'm not sure about that, the Fritz engine evolved quite a lot (probably thanks to Rybka) these last years and the gap was reduced since the first versions of Rybka. We'll see that in a few days.
Tano-Urayoan Russi Roman (2009-09-28 22:21:17)
Promotion
The promotion has centered around the new interface(GUI)and the new pemium membership for playchess. About the engine they just said "new stronger engine" but no numbers given.
Seems they emphasize the GUI and Shredder 12 the new human levels. Not as much the engine strenght as they gave up in chasing Rybka. I agree with Garvin I doubt Fritz will be close to Rybka 3
Thibault de Vassal (2009-10-07 16:00:18)
Fritz 12 rating at CEGT
I just discovered the first rating for Fritz 12 in the CEGT 40/20 (2GHz) rating list, 2933 so less than 20 points better than Fritz 11, quite a deception. Naum 4 is still not so far from Rybka 3.
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20SingleVersion/rangliste.html
1 Rybka 3 x64 1CPU 3112 17 17 1142 73.9% 2931 34.1%
2 Rybka 3 w32 1CPU 3053 16 16 1234 68.3% 2919 38.7%
3 Naum 4 w32 1CPU 2988 17 17 831 58.2% 2930 47.9%
4 Naum 4 x64 1CPU 2988 20 20 628 55.6% 2949 48.4%
5 Deep Fritz 11 1CPU 2937 14 14 1248 54.2% 2908 47.5%
6 Fritz 12 2933 19 19 674 48.8% 2941 46.0%
7 Fritz 11 2916 7 7 6292 54.9% 2882 42.3%
8 Shredder WM Edition Bonn 1CPU 2912 13 13 1580 50.7% 2907 41.7%
9 Zappa Mexico II x64 1CPU 2910 15 15 1084 54.7% 2878 45.0%
10 Thinker 5.4Ai x64 1CPU 2902 18 18 762 51.1% 2895 49.5%
Garvin Gray (2009-10-18 14:56:42)
arrived
I have received fritz 12 a couple of days ago. I have not yet played it against Rybka at all, but I do have one question for those who also have it.
How do I open a current database of games that are located on my computer? Seems like a silly question, but I can not seem to work it out.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-10-20 22:14:38)
Shredder 12 vs. Rybka 3
Shredder 12 (the chess engine more than the interface) looks much more promising than Fritz 12, here are the current CEGT rating lists, Naum 4 and Rybka 3 are not so far !
40 / 40 rating list
1 Rybka 3 x64 1CPU 3105 16 16 1293 71.7% 2944 35.0%
2 Rybka 3 w32 1CPU 3053 16 16 1234 68.3% 2919 38.7%
3 Deep Shredder 12 x64 1CPU 3000 27 27 351 55.1% 2964 45.9%
4 Naum 4 w32 1CPU 2988 17 17 831 58.2% 2930 47.9%
5 Naum 4 x64 1CPU 2982 18 18 728 54.2% 2953 48.8%
6 Deep Fritz 11 1CPU 2936 14 14 1298 53.5% 2911 47.3%
7 Fritz 12 2928 18 18 778 47.3% 2947 46.3%
8 Fritz 11 2916 7 7 6292 54.9% 2882 42.3%
9 Zappa Mexico II x64 1CPU 2915 15 15 1134 54.5% 2883 45.1%
10 Shredder WM Edition Bonn 1CPU 2912 13 13 1580 50.7% 2907 41.7%
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_40%20Rating%20List/40_40%20SingleVersion/rangliste.html
40 / 4 rating list
1 Rybka 3.0 x64 4CPU 3238 11 11 3400 80.4% 2993 27.7%
2 Naum 4.0 x64 4CPU 3126 11 11 2400 64.9% 3020 41.7%
3 Deep Shredder 12 x64 4CPU 3105 15 15 1300 65.8% 2991 35.9%
4 Deep Fritz 11 4CPU 3066 10 10 2500 58.3% 3008 44.5%
5 Stockfish 1.4 JA x64 4CPU 3032 11 11 2400 53.0% 3011 38.8%
6 Zappa Mexico II x64 4CPU 3026 8 8 4050 49.6% 3029 40.1%
7 Thinker 5.4D x64 4CPU Inert 3012 11 11 2200 50.3% 3010 39.5%
8 Hiarcs 12.1 4CPU 2998 11 11 2400 49.7% 3001 39.2%
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/40_4_Ratinglist/40_4_BestVersion/rangliste.html
Congrats to the author of Shredder !
John Smith (2009-11-13 18:19:12)
thanks for your responses
I see, it is a quite unexplored area.
Have engines advanced really that much though? Surely, there has been progress, but I did an experiment, I annotated some of my games using Fritz6 and Fritz 11. What caught me off guard was the fact that their 1st recommendation was the same everywhere, and in fact, oddly, Fritz 6 converged first to the "correct" reply.
They still sometimes fail to find some critical moves made by positional masters like Karpov or Kramnik. Of course they have also found many moves of their own (Bxh2!? vs Kasparov) which were not even considered by human masters.
Since my initial questions are probably on too abstract grounds, I'd like to ask a purchase question. I will buy Rybka soonish, however I was wondering if it is worth purchasing other engines as well.
- Is Shredder 12 worth it? are there some parts of the game where it does better than Rybka?
- Are they planning to release a new Deep Junior?
- Is the old Deep Junior 11 worth it, or because it hasn't been updated, even in positions where its strengths lie it has been surpasses by other engines?
Thibault de Vassal (2009-11-14 22:32:27)
Fritz 11 vs. Fritz 6
IMO, it is useless to try to compare Fritz 11 and older versions (or even other engines) when analyzing a human game... simply because there are much less "critical points" for engines in such games than in engine games or centaur games, 'cause there are much less horizon effects (sorry, I can't remember if this is the correct term, particularly after 1000 km on the road :)) in human games.
John Smith (2009-11-17 10:25:12)
so
So which engine is good to co-consult given Rybka?
In order to be useful it should have a different style, as an engine with style similar to Rybka's is unlikely to provide significantly additional information.
I am guessing Deep Junior is somewhat old (?), Shredder is also solid+positional so possibly not too useful to co-consult, Naum & Zapa have been discontinued and in Fritz the focus has shifted more to training features in the interface.
Is it only Rybka these days? What about the open source & free engines that exist?
Michel van der Kemp (2009-12-01 00:40:00)
Andersson & computers
I would think Anderson used all the help he could get, since he is a professional. So if a computer could help him achieve what he needed he would use that.
But mind you this is a maybe 5 years ago, when rybka was unknown, and computers like Fritz were the best engines. Back then humans were still (somewhat) thought to be superior I think, at least in strategical positions. So maybe he didn't use computer assistence.
Thibault de Vassal (2009-12-29 19:50:45)
RobboLito vs. Rybka 3
What are RobboLito, Ippolit and Igorrit ? It looks like these names are invading computer chess forums... As you may have read in the discussion mentioned below, the Rybka 3's source code may have been compromised and these engines "may" be clones of Rybka 3 (everyone does not agree on this). Good or really bad news, anyway this open source chess engine may have many consequences on the computer chess world, and correspondence chess as well...
http://www.ficgs.com/user_page.php?page=forum_read&id=8031
From the wikispace mentioned below :
IPPOLIT : Intellectual Persons Promotion Of Leninist International Tradesunions (!??)
Q. What is RobboLito?
A. RobboLito is the version of IPPOLIT that now contains endgame tablebases, the RobboBases.
A few links on RobboLito 0.085f1a, Ippolit & Igorrit (says it all IMO) :
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/RobboLito
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/Igorrit
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/FAQ
see also : ippolit.wikispaces.com/Clone+(Question)
http://ippolit.wikispaces.com/News
-> IPPOLIT banned from chessprogramming wiki!
PlayChess banned IPPOLIT from use online also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r_V_QkmHjo
http://www.chesslogik.com/robbolito.htm
http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/free-chessengine-robbolito-is-1-at-swisstest-rybka-2?lc=1
http://www.cyclonechess.com/rybka3.htm
"RobboLito is an open-source UCI chess engine by: Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin, Igor Igorovich Igoronov, and Roberto Pescatore."
RobboLito does not yet support: multiPV, own book, egbbs, tablebases, multiple CPUs/cores, chess variants
Estimated rating: ~ 3300 ELO
Available versions:
RobboLito 0.085g3 w32 (optimized windows 32-bit executable and source code)
RobboLito_0.085g3_w32_no_SSE2 (optimized windows 32-bit executable - for older CPUs that don't support Intel SSE2 instruction set)
RobboLito 0.085g3_x64 (fast windows 64-bit PGO executable compiled by peterpan)
RobboLito 0.085g3l_x86 (optimized linux 64-bit executable and source code ported to linux by unisky)
http://www.cyclonechess.com/robbolito.htm
http://www.cyclonechess.com/rybka3.htm
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1261597025/4
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1258991841
http://queenchess.blogspot.com/2009/11/fritz-12-vs-robbolito-e2-latest-version.html
http://lefounumerique.xooit.com/next?t=663 (french)
Wayne Lowrance (2009-12-30 19:10:08)
Rybka clone
Nick I think you have hit the nail on the head. Yes that is suspicious. Commercial programmers of programs like shreddar, Fritz, Junior and Zappa, etc have worked a long time and not come to Rybka playing floor yet. So it would seem unreasonable these recent free programs have made the jump mostly right at the start. A huge compliment to Vas I would say
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-03-21 22:52:10)
SSDF rating list (march 2010)
The new SSDF rating list reveals at least one thing : Between an old Athlon 1200 and a modern Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600, there is at least a 120 point gap. Unfortunately, Ippolit/Ivanhoe/Igorrit/Firebird are still out of the list.
SSDF RATING LIST 2010-03-21 %120316 games played by 311 computers
Rating + - Games Won Oppo
------ --- --- ----- --- ----
1 Deep Rybka 3 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3227 27 -25 1005 83% 2962
2 Naum 4 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3149 25 -23 986 74% 2963
3 Deep Shredder 12 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3124 26 -24 863 70% 2972
4 Deep Fritz 12 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3117 37 -36 373 60% 3043
5 Deep Rybka 3 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 3090 39 -38 332 58% 3033
6 Deep Fritz 11 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3081 22 -21 1142 68% 2946
7 Zappa Mexico II x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3068 27 -26 696 59% 3002
8 Naum 3.1 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3052 30 -29 572 59% 2990
9 Deep Hiarcs 12 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3039 22 -21 1087 61% 2958
10 Deep Shredder 11 x64 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3038 26 -26 726 58% 2981
11 Hiarcs 11.2 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3010 25 -25 761 54% 2984
12 Glaurung 2.2 x64 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 3007 22 -22 1001 60% 2933
13 Shredder 12 256MB A1200 MHz 3006 39 -39 320 45% 3040
14 Naum 4 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2998 29 -29 574 50% 2996
15 Deep Junior 10.1 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2975 25 -25 766 48% 2992
16 Rybka 2.3.1 Arena 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2926 22 -22 964 52% 2912
17 Fritz 11 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2915 27 -27 669 47% 2935
18 Deep Fritz 8 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2912 25 -26 753 39% 2991
19 Shredder 8 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2908 28 -29 603 39% 2984
20 Deep Shredder 11 256MB Athlon 1200 2907 30 -30 534 45% 2941
21 Hiarcs 11.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2879 23 -23 941 49% 2882
22 CM King 3.5 x64 MP 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2866 31 -32 530 33% 2990
23 Junior 10.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2864 19 -20 1271 47% 2882
24 Deep Junior 8 2GB Q6600 2,4 GHz 2859 29 -30 589 36% 2961
25 Fritz 10 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2851 34 -33 458 64% 2749
26 Zap!Chess Z. 256MB Athlon 1200 MH 2842 21 -21 1060 50% 2840
27 Fruit 2.2.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2833 19 -19 1385 62% 2750
28 Spike 1.2 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2817 26 -26 714 57% 2766
29 Chess Tiger 2007 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2775 25 -26 748 46% 2805
29 Rybka 1.0 beta 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2775 64 -69 115 38% 2860
31 Zap!Chess 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2737 30 -29 562 53% 2713
32 Gandalf 6.0 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2735 24 -24 855 56% 2693
33 Pocket Fritz 3 Hiarcs Ipaq 214 624 MHz 2733 64 -58 142 66% 2617
34 Chessmaster 9000 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2720 36 -35 385 56% 2680
35 Pro Deo 1.1 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2714 24 -23 876 57% 2660
36 Pocket Shredder Ipaq 114 624 MHz 2698 83 -70 100 74% 2520
37 Deep Sjeng 1.5a 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2675 31 -31 493 52% 2663
38 CEBoard Fruit 2.3.1 XScale 400 400 MHz 2647 65 -61 129 62% 2564
39 Revelation Rybka 2.2 XScale 500 MHz 2632 47 -45 240 62% 2549
39 Ruffian 2.0.0 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2632 49 -49 205 46% 2661
41 Pocket Fritz 3 Glaurung 2.1 Ipaq 614C 2528 69 -74 100 40% 2604
42 Pocket Fritz 2 XScale 400 MHz 2508 48 -46 225 57% 2459
43 Resurrection Rybka 2.2 StrongARM 203 MH 2484 43 -43 260 51% 2477
44 Resurrection Fruit '05 StrongARM 203 MH 2395 67 -63 120 60% 2320
45 Hiarcs 9.5a/9.6 Palm TungstenE OMAP 126 2392 35 -35 400 45% 2426
46 CEBoard Crafty 2004 HP RX4240 400 MHz 2375 52 -54 180 41% 2443
47 R30 v. 2.5 2274 41 -38 343 69% 2136
48 Palm Tiger 2009 Tung C 400 MHz 2229 66 -71 110 38% 2317
49 Chess Genius 1.4 SX1 OMAP 310 120 MHz 2151 50 -48 210 60% 2081
50 Chess Tiger 14.9 Palm m515 16MB 42MHz 2103 69 -74 100 39% 2182
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-12 21:08:23)
NEW # 1
New number 1 or not, the gap decreases... All this was predictable (and it was predicted) even if Rybka was untouchable for the most when the gap was over 100 elo points... but after that Chessbase intelligently scheduled the improvements of Fritz, Shredder, Junior, Hiarcs & finally Rybka, came Naum, Stockfish, Ippolit & its clones RobboLito, Ivanhoe & Firebird.
Clones or not clones, anyway now it seems obvious for everyone that it will be harder and harder to make money with chess engines, just like with everything else on the internet... The beginning of the decadence (according to its meaning) ?
Garvin Gray (2010-04-14 09:05:55)
Computer keeps locking up... assistance
Ram: 3.49GB and I have the hash at 16mb.
6 men tablebases, but still have plenty of room on the hard drive.
How do I open the gui options, I use fritz 10 or 12 as my gui.
Josef Riha (2010-04-14 09:32:05)
Computer keeps locking up... assistance
Do a right click at the free space under the chessboard. A popup-menu appears.
Click at options. Now you can see several tabs. Two of them are Tablebases GUI and Tablebases Engine.
There you can enter up to 3 paths where your tablebases are located on disk and the size of the cache-memory. At the GUI-tab you have a checkbox to activate for loading the TB's at program start. Fritz 10 options have only one tab for tablebases.
For more details click the help-button.
Thibault de Vassal (2010-04-14 16:22:00)
Firebird, Ivanhoe vs. Rybka
There are several articles that are worth to read on Firebird & the other chess engines from the Ippolit series, also on the history of chess engines from Fritz, Shredder, Hiarcs & Junior to Stockfish and programmers/clones issues, particularly at Chessvibes & ChessNinja :
Chess engine controversy
http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/chess-engine-controversy/
New fish in town
http://www.chessninja.com/dailydirt/2010/04/new-fish-in-town.htm
Wayne Lowrance (2010-04-15 17:06:14)
Computer keeps locking up... assistance
Thank you Josef. But a lone time back I did see it (I thought). Maybe I remember wrong. Anyone with Fritz11 gui see it ? thank you
Wayne
Thibault de Vassal (2010-05-09 23:02:05)
Rybka 4, news, tests & results
It looks like Rybka 4 is to be released, this discussion could gather the news, tests & results in matches of this new version against Rybka 3 and other engines (thinking about Stockfish 1.7.1, Naum 4.2, Fritz 12, Shredder 12, Hiarcs & engines that are "possible" clones of Rybka: Firebird 1.2, Ivanhoe, RobboLito, Ippolit & so on)...
Garvin Gray (2010-06-28 12:40:37)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
Ahh good, you are using CB Rybka (F12).
CB I take it stands for chessbase.
I have been trying to following procedure in Fritz 12 to save hash, but does not seem to be working for me.
After using infinite analysis, I go to engine (home-insert- board options at the top of the gui.).
I then choose change main engine and then click on engine parameters. Do I have this right so far?
Then I click on save hash. Do I need to tick preserve analysis?
I have even tried after saving hash and then restarting F12 clicking on load hash, but nothing I seem to try gets the engine to go back to where I was with the previous analysis.
Help!
Wayne Lowrance (2010-06-28 18:40:50)
Save/Reload hash in Rybka
Howdy. I had all sorts of trouble with it too. I finally posted it on Rybka forum. But first, I am not sure your going about it correct. You just need to go to select new engine, then set engine parameters, and there you find save/load hash. Sounds like your getting to this point anyways.
Ok, I paste what was told me at the forum.
This is msg I get when ticking Save Hash (Save hash failed). I created a folder R4.rsh
but apparently it is not found the path is:
C:\users\administration\documents\ChessBase\nogames\EngineParameters\Deep Rybka 4x64\R4.rsh
What am I doing wrong. R4 manual no help.
Fritz12 GUI & Vsta
That was question post:
I think you need to create a file not a folder. :grin:
Nothing ventured, nothing gained...
Reply Report
this is 1 of 2 responses. Other is from Vas himself as follows.
You need to create a dummy file - you can just do that with notepad or something.
This last was from Vas.
Ok, summary :) All you have to do is create a file.rsh: (By the way, My Son stopped bye and he said "dad I will do it for you)" So he created the dummy file "file.rsh". works fine :)
Hope this helps, Wayne
Scott Nichols (2010-08-09 21:12:59)
Entry fee for higher class tournament
Just a note to say how this new rule is affecting at least one player here (me), :) I "earned" entry to a higher class tournament by winning the class just below. I paid my ten E-points and received entry into the next higher class. We have been playing for a while and I am holding my own ok. I have met new players and am overjoyed at the chance to play them. They are all friendly and welcoming. Life couldn't be better, ......but....... Maybe it's just me, but I feel at this point that I never REALLY earned my way into this realm. The old way was to suffer through months and years of climbing the rating ladder a little at a time and then finally reach that next level. Also, just my opinion, is that these days there really isn't a big difference in strengths between 1850 and 2450 given that we all have fast computers running on Rybka mostly. The difference I find is the human side of the ratings. The old days whether Shredder could beat Fritz, or Deep Junior could beat Hiarcs are long gone. So I guess what I'm trying to say without rambling any further, is that as much as I like playing in the higher section, I would prefer to "EARN" it the old way. Just one players opinion, Thank you
Thibault de Vassal (2010-09-30 13:35:58)
Next freestyle tournament
A "freestyle chess tournament" is (according to me) a chess tournament played OTB or on the internet by players using any kind of help (chess engines [Rybka, Fire, Houdini, Fritz, Shredder, whatever...], databases, other players...) with a fast time control (a few hours per game at most).
The "FICGS chess freestyle cup" is a freestyle chess tournament played on the internet...
As "correspondence" implies all freestyle features but the fast time control, freestyle 'must' probably mean played at a fast time control, or the two words would mean the same.
Well, it may be worth to add the final definition in the Help section after all :)
Garvin Gray (2010-10-31 14:41:18)
Creating an opening book
No, I do not except people to give away their opening secrets, but I was wondering.
How does one create an opening book? I have just been changing options in the fritz or rybka books from green to red and vice versa, but I assume that quite a lot of the decent players on here have proper opening books.
What process did you go through to create these books?
Garvin Gray (2010-11-07 11:23:10)
rybka 4 opening book
Hello all,
I downloaded the Rybka 4 opening book and have had no end of problems trying to make it work.
I have read the rybka forums on adaptors and how to install, but they make about as much sense to me as a foreign language does.
I have contacted chessok and now am in back and forth emails about this topic and my dis-satisfaction with the products.
Is someone able to explain how to get the rybka 4 opening book to work in aquarium and Fritz 12 in really simple language. No coding please.
Dmitri Mamrukov (2011-02-10 08:45:13)
playchess.com
Anybody plays Advanced Chess on playchess.com? I use the standard interface that comes with my paid membership. But in the Engine Room I can't play such chess because I'm told that I can't taskswitch (otherwise, their anti-cheating mechanism would be triggered, even though it's not human chess at all). For that, I need to buy some ChessBase product like the Fritz interface or ChessBase. Is there any way to legally play Centaur games? Anybody tried doing it on 2 computers: on one to make moves (in the standard playchess.com interface) and on the other to analyze with your favorite engine? Thanks.
Kamesh Nookala (2011-02-12 11:50:42)
playchess.com
Okay, in order to play as Centaur, you need a Fritz GUI, which comes with any of the products that are sold by playchess.com. You can check their store. You cannot play as Centaur using the Free Client. That's a Big No. If you shell out about 50 USD you can get the Fritz 12 GUI
Regards
Kam
Dmitri Mamrukov (2011-03-06 22:30:23)
playchess.com
Thanks. I did have to shell out some handful of money for the Fritz GUI. Too bad there are very few centaurs on playchess.de...
Thibault de Vassal (2013-01-16 18:10:33)
FICGS admin scam me
Of course I meant players who understood what this site is....
If someone registers while thinking this site is a TV shop website, he may claim that there are no TVs enough to buy on here and say the admin that he should ask all players if they want TVs available to buy but well.... wouldn't it be quite ridiculous?
Players who are not aware that the use of chess engines is encouraged are very rare... The message "As a reminder, the use of chess engines (Rybka, Fritz, Shredder...) is allowed and encouraged in standard chess tournaments." is visible when anyone enters any rated chess tournament.
Is it really necessary to have this message blinking in big size on all pages?
Michael Sayers (2014-04-21 18:47:59)
Standard time control abusers
p.s. - not everyone uses an engine, some of us still do chess the old fashioned way rather than seeking a quick Rybka/Fritz/Houdini or whatever fix, and doing things the old fashioned way sometimes might need a few days ;-)
Dann Corbit (2016-01-07 23:52:11)
Thematic tournaments?
Analysis for BDG:
rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/3PP3/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - acd 37; acs 2548; bm dxe4; cce 35; ce 30; id "gentest-5125"; pm dxe4 {2629} e6 {408} c6 {293} Nc6 {16} c5 {16} Nf6 {14} a6 {1} e5 {1}; pv dxe4 Nc3 Nf6 Bg5 c6 Nge2 h6 Bxf6 exf6 Nxe4 f5 Nd2 Bd6 g3 O-O Bg2 Be6 O-O Nd7 c4 Nf6 Qb3 Rb8 Qc3 Re8 Rfe1 Qd7 Rac1 Rbd8 Nf3 Ne4 Qe3 b5 cxb5 cxb5 Ne5 Bxe5 dxe5 Bxa2 Bxe4 fxe4 Qxe4; white_wins 1092; black_wins 1345; draws 800; Opening Blackmar-Diemer Gambit: Fritz Attack. ; CaxtonID: 197 ECO: D00;
Thibault de Vassal (2016-02-11 21:28:37)
Stockfish 7, Komodo 9.2 or 9.3
Chess engines keep going, what do you think about the most recent ones? Do you prefer Stockfish 7, Komodo 9.3 and why?
Both engines reach about 3340 on the CEGT rating list, this definitely looks like stratosferic levels compared to the old Fritz, Rybka, Junior & so on :)
Garvin Gray (2016-02-12 01:22:43)
Stockfish 7, Komodo 9.2 or 9.3
And how is Fritz 15 going in comparison as well?
Garvin Gray (2017-12-22 10:06:03)
Monte Carlo Analysis
Time to start a thread on this topic, since it has gained some 'fame' with AlphaZero's win.
I have been looking at it and experimenting with it using Fritz 16 gui, but so far it seems to be only using Fritz 16 as the main engine, even though I am choosing four engines.
I have tried different depth (keeping them odd as recommended) and also both middle and broad search options.
So I am a bit lost as to the value of Monte Carlo Analysis for correspondence play. Is someone able to assist on whether it will show analysis or games from other engines, or how the breakdown works?
Thibault de Vassal (2017-12-22 23:28:18)
Monte Carlo Analysis
Oh wow, it looks like I have no more idea of what Fritz Gui looks like nowadays... Is there a "Monte Carlo" engine or is it a Fritz option? Or is it the old option allowing engines to play each other in tournaments on various openings & positions?
Actually, I don't see the interest of a 'pure' Monte Carlo method in chess as it just looks like a non-optimized search. But it seems to me that it's a long time that engines use algorithms that look like it when it may be useful (particularly in calm positions & endgames). So, it's just a "plus" if you have some processing time to do it (like AlphaZero, having a much more powerful hardware), otherwise...
Right now, I must say I still have no accurate idea of how AlphaZero plays chess.
Garvin Gray (2017-12-23 00:53:39)
Monte Carlo Analysis
In the Fritz 16 gui, you choose Monte Carlo Analysis from the header options, just like you would if you were choosing infinite analysis or deep position analysis and the many other types of game styles.
Your main engine must be Fritz 16, which seems to be a pain. This is one of my questions about this analysis style. Will explain more below.
Then after choosing Monte Carlo Analysis, Fritz gui will change over to MCA and a new screen will appear with options:
Search depth: default is 5. The first is the search depth, with a default of "5". This controls how far ahead (in half-moves, or "plies") the engine will look before making a move. For example, if you leave this at "5", the engine will look 2.5 moves ahead before making a move. Remember, the engine is going to be playing a lot of games against itself and storing the moves in the form of a tree, so the search depth is important. You must realize, however, that there's something of a tradeoff here; the higher you set the search depth, the more time the engine will need to make each move -- so you're trading time for depth. On the other hand, setting a lower search depth means that many more games will be played in a given amount of time, but that the moves themselves are likely to be more superficial.
Keep in mind, too, that you should use only odd numbers for the search depth, because chess engines tend to develop a tactical "blind spot" when made to analyze at even ply depths. Rule of thumb: odd numbers good, even numbers bad.
The second setting is the "width" of the tree. This is similar in some ways to the "Branching factor" in Deep Position Analysis and is another "space for time" tradeoff. If you create a "Narrow" tree, you won't see many alternative moves displayed in your game tree but the overall process of playing games and generating the tree will be faster. "Broad" trees show more alternatives but take longer to generate (it requires more processor time and thus slows down the chess engine).
-------------------------------------
So in all from my reading- what I can seem to deduce is- MCA plays many games against itself starting from the set position. The longer you leave the analysis, the more 'reliable' the results.
The question, or issue I am having at the moment for testing is, in the Fritz gui, I am having to use Fritz 16 as the main engine but am not seeing the analysis change to any other engines, so am wondering how long before it does, or will it only analysis the position in Fritz 16?
Considering at the start when you were loading your setting, you were given the option of four engines, this seems confusing to me.
So I thought I would ask if someone else had more experience with MCA and how it works?
Also, what about Deep position analysis? We could start a thread about that one too.
Daniel Parmet (2017-12-24 18:51:20)
Monte Carlo Analysis
I thought the whole idea of IDEA was a human thought merge of computer analysis through MCA?
I had the thought about using MCA with chess engines as the brain nearly 5 years ago at work. My boss loved the idea and tasked me with it. However, I have no coding skills so my ability was limited to what was available which was extremely limited at the time.
The best way to think of MCA is to accept that we don't know what move is best (hence why Alphazero didn't have or want an opening book or games database). From here now, it's like trying to predict what's best and what will come from flipping a coin 5 million times. You know in a coin scenario that it is 50%. But what about the stock market? A lottery ticket? A game of black jack? Or Chess? Each individual decision could yield 50.1% in favor and by MCA you will find it. It will create a tree that shows a RANGE of your worst possibilities to best on a probalistic manner. The most common use is for wealth management investing.
As for how to change off the Fritz engine, I don't know. I could never figure that out (though I only have the Fritz 13 gui). I guess I was hoping this feature would be improved over time. Perhaps now due to Alphazero, it will be.
Graham Kerr (2018-03-20 04:18:16)
Monte Carlo Analysis
I first came across Monte Carlo Analysis some years ago when i bought Fritz 12, which was rebranded as Rybka 4 and packaged with said engine. Back then the analysis mode was only usable with the Rybka engines, but more recently, now that Rybka author Vasik Rajlich is writing the engines for Fritz (since F15), those engines also work in MCA mode.
I don't know what's changed between Fritz 12 and Fritz 16, but i suspect only F16, F15 and older Rybka engines will work with MCA...
Thibault de Vassal (2018-06-30 20:22:16)
Interview with 15th chess WCH finalist
For once, as Eros & I couldn't find much more to say after all his consecutive wins, I asked Ramil Germanes these few questions around his match & correspondence chess (with what may look like a quite surprising conclusion).
_______________________
- Hello Ramil, many thanks for answering those few questions! This is a first time with the WCH finalist, as the winner (Eros again) agreeded this could be an interesting experiment for a change, so we'll probably have a quite different point of view this time! You just finished your games to score 6-6 (12 draws), Eros retaining the title again. I guess this was the first time you played such a correspondence chess match, what are your impressions on this knockout format?
Yes this is the first time I've played a world championship match although I played before in earlier editions of this world championship but not reaching the challenger level. My impression? Its great playing for the world championship but I know its nearly impossible to beat the world champion.
- Let's rewind a few months backward, would you make other choices, in openings or anything?
I don't know. Tbh, I'm not very good on chess theory and not very updated as well. So I'm just playing basic moves hoping for opportunities to come up.
- So, is Eros beatable in this final match according to you? (please give us some hope) ^^
With how quickly you can search information and the strength of chess engines nowadays, its almost impossible to beat him unless you have access to alpha zero (haha). Though maybe Herbert Kruse can pull it off.
- What can you tell us about yourself and your relation to chess & correspondence chess?
I'm just an ordinary guy from the Philipines who happens to love playing chess. But my love of computers is what brought me to correspondence chess and to ficgs.
- Do you play other games, e.g. Go, Shogi, cards games?
No I don't know how to play those games.
- Could you tell us how these 12 games went from your own point of view?
For me, the games went through their normal course. Both of us didn't made any major mistakes so all games were drawn. That's just how it went. Though there were new moves on some the games it doesn't really changes result of the older games played before.
- Would you share a few tips to play good correspondence chess in 2018, or at least to beat the best chess engines? :)
Sorry but i dont know. I will be the new world champion by now if i know, hehehe.
- You told me that your computer configuration was basically a quad-core i5 3570 / 4gb on Fritz GUI (about 10,500 kn/s) / Windows 10, and we know that many of us (Eros included) still use such configs or even dual-core, would an octa-core have brought a significant advantage to you to win this match according to you?
Oh I don't know they still have those configurations. But I've already encountered opponents in Infinity Chess with 18-22 cores configs. Anyways, an octa-core or faster cpu would definitely be going to speed up my analysis and will let me analyze more lines and variations which may improves my overall play.
Honestly, I don't have that much time these days for correspondence chess. In my match against Eros, I had only about 1 hour of analysis time before work and about another 1 hour after work. Since I already have a family and 2 kids, they have to be my priority first. And I think somebody also can relate to this. So a faster cpu would be very helpful in the match and maybe will give a better chance than a slower cpu.
- As far as I know, you love to build computers, did you use or think about using several ones at the same time for analysis?
No. I only used one computer in my match against Eros. I have 2 other computers but both are slower.
- How much time you've been playing correspondence chess & how do you feel the way the game changed over the years?
I've been playing correspondence chess since 2010 and I have observed that its easier to win games in the past when chess engines were still weaker. Because you notice some players depend only on engine moves and engines still commit mistakes and you can exploit those mistakes if you "investigate" further.
Unlike now, engines are very strong that even players who rely solely on engines moves will be very hard to beat. It lessens the gap of players that know how to "use" the engines and the ones who do not.
- Finally, what makes you love correspondence chess in 2018?
I will always love chess and correspondence chess but what makes it exciting now is the rise of the new kind of engines.
Engines like Leela chess zero that has a different approach in playing chess. Maybe more of these kind of chess engines will be seen in the future. Because of its use of monte carlo analysis and neural networks, we are starting to see moves that we have never seen before. Very aggressive attacks and moves defying opening principles can now be seen. Correspondence chess is getting exciting again!
Thibault de Vassal (2019-11-09 00:57:30)
Fat Fritz vs. Stockfish
Few months ago, Chessbase announced "Fat Fritz", then few days ago it was alive with a finished 100 games match against Stockfish 8 and another one with the engine playing Stockfish 10. It won both matches by a quite good score... but just like the event AlphaZero-Stockfish, conditions may be discussed.
Any thoughts on the event and Fat Fritz qualities & strength?
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz-defeats-stockfish-match
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz-defeats-stockfish-match-2
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz-what-on-earth-is-that
Garvin Gray (2019-11-10 12:08:50)
Fat Fritz vs. Stockfish
Interesting this post has been made. I was about to ask what people think of Komodo 13 and how many cpu's do they think it requires to get the full value of Komodo 13.
When AlphaZero 'won' against Stockfish, I think I was one of the first posters that I saw who criticised the conditions and that Stockfish was almost handicapped out of the match.
This match between Fat Fritz and Stockfish seems to have had more even conditions, but I do wonder if the Stockfish 10 engine, was just the one straight off the download, or whether the Stockfish designers were consulted and allowed to tune their engine for the match, just like Fat Fritz would have been.
Those items I think are most important in making any conclusions about how much better Fat Fritz is in front of Stockfish.
And I am always left to wonder about two items when I hear about the results of these matches:
1) Stockfish feels like a very good engine to analyse your correspondence chess games with, but when it is put against some of the other top engines in head to head competitions, it competes well, but loses by a small amount.
So it feels to me like Stockfish has been designed for a purpose, to assist people with their correspondence chess analysis, rather than just being a brute force engine killer.
I would like to see Komodo and Houdini against Fat Fritz or any other contender, with equal conditions and both of those engines having being tuned for the match before hand.
Thibault de Vassal (2019-11-11 20:29:20)
Komodo 13
I guess that it is very hard to answer as many of us have very subjective preferences (like the old times with the quatuor Shredder, Hiarcs, Fritz & Junior, at least before Rybka took it all)... As for me, I can't even answer for now but I always used to consider CEGT rating lists to bias my opinion ^^
Clodomiro Ortiz (2019-11-15 11:38:01)
Fat Fritz vs. Stockfish
Key words are equal conditions,alphazero runs in gpu supercomputers so it is not matchable,,up to now i see only marketing strategies in favor of stockfish competitors...
Thibault de Vassal (2021-06-21 13:42:20)
Fat Fritz 2 vs. Stockfish 13
Chess engines still evolve, now we have Stock... err, Fat Fritz 2 (based on Stockfish 12) on Fritz 17 GUI, and the famous free chess engine Stockfish 13, both using neural networks on CPU and not GPU anymore (if I understood well).
Did anyone try both of them to compare it, or to compare to former versions like Stockfish 11 ? What learnings?
Thibault de Vassal (2020-07-30 01:28:33)
Chess engines levels from 1985 to 2020
What do you think about these elo estimations for chess engines, from Mephisto to DeepBlue, then AlphaZero and Stockfish, Komodo & so on?
Old names surfacing: Rybka of course, all Chessbase engines (Fritz, Junior, Hiarcs & Shredder) but also older but well known names like Fruit, Crafty, Chess Tiger, Chess Genius, Chessmaster, Rebel, Saitek, Nimzo and many others... Those graphics are always funny to watch :)
Stanislas Gounant (2020-10-02 20:05:25)
Stockfish 12, neural network
Usually I choose the executable with BMI2 set up. But for SF12 I've choose SVX2 version.
I've Install it on my old Fritz 11 GUI and all SF version work very well on it.
If you can't use the executable, you must have a very old computer. On wich GUI have you try to install it ?
Garvin Gray (2020-10-03 04:51:35)
Stockfish 12, neural network
Hello Stanislas,
Thank you for your reply and assistance.
I believe I have been able to solve the issue and it was more simple than I thought.
I was thinking that my attempts to download SF12 and use the engine were being thwarted due to issue with the Neural Network.
But I re-downloaded the engine, loaded it and then changed the parameters and it now loads just fine.
I use Fritz 12 GUI, but I also have Fritz 17 GUI.
And my computer is a decent one and less than a year old, so no issues there.
John Dyson (2021-06-23 15:20:47)
Fat Fritz 2 vs. Stockfish 13
Stockfish 13 appears a little stronger than 11 or 12. Fat Fritz 2 I haven't tried because it costs money!
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