second language

  

second language


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Alexis Bromo    (2008-09-25)
second language

if the most of people speak another language, this language must be the second official language of the country, will not it? i tell about ukraine and russian language...


Alexis Bromo    (2008-09-25 21:58:48)
language

i want to know, does ukraine need second language or not...


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-25 23:06:07)
well

then the right way (I think) is just to count players by nationalities - and the most numerous group determines the second language. I don't think that there are so many Russians here - I think Spanish or German would prevail.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-25 23:13:44)
Alexis

What you are actually doing - is just trying to convert Ficgs.com into Igame.ru :)) I'd recommend you to register on chess-online.ru - they have vibrant russian forum. The palpable difference between westerners and russians - is in absence of desire to communicate a lot (and most time to chatter about nothing :)). Just look at Ficgs forum - visitors are pretty rare and usually they pretty brief and discuss only chess/site related issues.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-25 23:18:51)
I just realized ...

that there is no FRENCH(!!!) version of Ficgs.com. Or maybe I'm wrong?


Don Groves    (2008-09-25 23:51:47)
FICGS languages

I think Thibault recently posted how many players of each nationality were registered on FICGS.


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-09-26 01:27:50)
Second language

In South America I think only Bolivia has got more than one official language, and it is not Russian, I am afraid.


Alexis Bromo    (2008-09-26 07:31:12)
language

i posted this topic about ukraine as a country. and second official language for country. but it's a good idea to show national statistics on ficgs :)


Alexis Bromo    (2008-09-26 07:38:46)
Rodolfo

in ukraine, the most of people speak russian. but it is not official language. and as far as i know canada and switzerland are multi-language counties. so why russian can not be official language in ukraine?


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-26 16:30:07)
Alexis Bromo

Ukrainian and russian languages are very closed, have the same roots. Dutch and German like. But nobody wants to arteficially introduce German as second languge in Holland :) In Ukraine you can speak any language, but official papers must be ukrainian with russian/englisch/french translation if you need it.


Thibault de Vassal    (2008-09-26 20:31:40)
Statistics by country

Hi Alexis, Denis & all.. Here are current statistics by country :

USA 1066 FRA 363 GBR 261 CAN 189 DEU 160 RUS 130 ITA 126 IND 120 ROU 93 TUR 89 BRA 79 BEL 75 AUS 70 ESP 63 PHL 55 POL 53 SWE 51 NLD 50 ARG 45 MEX 43 ZAF 43 GRC 39 BGR 38 UKR 37 HUN 36 CZE 33 CHE 32 ISR 31 FIN 30 IDN 30 IRL 29 PRT 29 VNM 25 AUT 24 VEN 24 CHL 23 DZA 23 EGY 21 SGP 21 CHN 20 DNK 20 COL 19 LTU 18 NOR 18 MAR 17 NZL 17 SVN 17 HRV 16 IRN 16 MYS 16 PER 16 SRB 16 PRI 14 SVK 13 THA 13 HKG 12 JPN 12 EST 11 GEO 9 PAK 9 KOR 8 LVA 8 ARM 7 BIH 7 ISL 7 TUN 7 TWN 7 BLR 6 CYP 6 LKA 6 MLT 6 ALB 5 CUB 5 KAZ 5 URY 5 ARE 4 ASM 4 BOL 4 CRI 4 ECU 4 GHA 4 LBN 4 LUX 4 MKD 4 NGA 4 BGD 3 DOM 3 FRO 3 GTM 3 JOR 3 MDA 3 MMR 3 MNG 3 PRY 3 SAU 3 ZWE 3 ATG 2 BHS 2 CMR 2 ERI 2 HTI 2 IRQ 2 KEN 2 KGZ 2 KHM 2 MDG 2 MNE 2 MUS 2 NIC 2 NPL 2 PNG 2 TTO 2 UGA 2 UZB 2 AIA 1 ALA 1 ANY 1 AZE 1 BHR 1 BRB 1 GLP 1 GMB 1 GRD 1 GUM 1 HND 1 JAM 1 LBY 1 LSO 1 MOZ 1 MRT 1 NCL 1 PRK 1 QAT 1 SHN 1 SYR 1 TKM 1 UMI 1 VUT 1

All players in each country :

http://www.ficgs.com/directory_countries.html


There's a french version of FICGS - see home page - you may change the language in Preferences (English, French, Deutsch, Spanish).

By the way, I'll open chess & Go forums in every languages very soon, if anyone wants to be a moderator in his own language, please look at the next threads in this forum for more information.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-27 01:54:32)
hmmm...

Iouri Basiliev "arteficially introduce" Russian in Crimea??? Alexis Bromo it is not a good place to discuss our internal problems here on international site.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-27 02:03:33)
Thanks!

Thibault thanks for the interesting info! :) as to other language site i actually ment that though introduction changes due to language selection other crucial messages remain English. Well, maybe that is even good - we all can communicate.


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-09-27 06:10:36)
Languages .....

That reminds me something, years ago I had a friend who was studing Russian, and he tried to adapt the Cirillic alphabet to the Spanish language.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-27 11:41:28)
and...?

Rodolfo what was the result? Viglyadelo bi prikolno! :)) Буэнос Диас!


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-09-27 13:58:06)
The result ...

Nothing special, he showed me some senteces in cirillic, he liked languages, especially slavic ones. Since I did not share his passion, I did not follow up. I have not seen him for many years.


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-28 11:44:38)
Denis

I was talking about country, not the region. I would accept any language by voting majority. It could be tatarian in Crimea in 10 years from now :)


Alexis Bromo    (2008-09-28 13:44:22)
Iouri

So am I. :) But there was not voting. And government didn't ask people. I want russian the regional language if it cannot be official. Many of my friends in eastern and southern regions have serious problems with communication.


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-09-28 15:34:26)
Languages ...

This is very interesting, in the olimpic games in Barcelona, the King of Spain spoke a few sentences in Catalan, someone told me it was the first time in History that a King of Spain spoke publicly in Catalan, instead of Spanish, also in Italy, in Bolzano, the streets names are in both Italian and German and the region I think have the status on bilingual.

In my opinion a second language is always a wonderful thing, been able to speak another language always enriches a person.

There was a SF writer in one of his stories he said that langiage gave shape to thoughts, not the opposite, and in the novel 1984 of George Orwell there was the concept of eliminating dissident movements by creating a new language without words that could be used for thoughts against the government.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-28 17:30:23)
Iouri Basiliev

"I would accept any language by voting majority". For you to know that majority of people in Crimea are Russian speaking people. "It could be tatarian in Crimea in 10 years from now" It'l happen not until Turkish language became second official language in German. Again "I would accept any language by voting majority". Western "dermocrats" and their supporters here in Ukraine showed very clear that they "accept" only those views of "voting majority" that correspond to their own interests. and this is you and others like you to blame that word "democracy" (not so bad concept actually) turned into CURSE here in Ukraine and in Russia.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-28 17:38:13)
Alexis Bromo

"Many of my friends in eastern and southern regions have serious problems with communication." this IS what our western "friends" (like Iouri Basiliev) actually want to have in Ukraine.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-28 18:13:27)
Alexis Bromo

this is called "divide & conquer" principle - just look at history.


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-28 21:24:57)
Denis Ivanchenkov

Western "dermocrats" would be nice expression for a 12 years old idiot. Sorry. End of discussion.


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-09-28 23:00:55)
Democracy ...

Democracy is just an illusion, only simple minds believe in it. Market and power are the crude reality.


Don Groves    (2008-09-29 01:03:33)
Democracy

The biggest problem democracy has is its association with capitalism. Just as communism was given a bad name by the Soviet Union, democracy is being given a bad name by the US.

When Bush speaks of bringing "democracy" to Iraq, he is really referring to US-style capitalism, not democracy. Of democracy, Bush knows nothing.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-29 10:11:21)
Rodolfo d Ettorre

"Market and power are the crude reality." Yeah! You are right! here in Ukraine and in Russia we already know it! and we know the real price of "democratic" blah-blah-blah - and this IS what makes adepts of "democracy" (like Iouri Basiliev) nervous.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-29 10:25:46)
By the way...

I wrote "deRmocrtats" with intent! From foreigners it's just a mispelling - just extra letter accidentally appered in a word. But for the russian speaking guy it's different! Iouri Basiliev is not alien to Russian - he knows Russian and he knows that "deRmocracy" in Russian is translated as "shitocracy"!!! :) from the first his post in this topic I understand that he must be an immigrant from former Soviet Union. He lives in German. Very probably he is not well adopted in German society - and is treated as person of "lesser quality". and this is the real reason why he so willingly participated in this talk (so imprudently started by Alex). For Iouri it's just an opportunnity (well I guess he thinks this way) to gain self confidence - by building corresponding hierarhcy of "values": he, lesser-rank German, is still "more civilized", "more democratic" than those "stupid barbaric" Ukrainians.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-29 10:35:00)
Thibault

I would recommend to close (and even to erase) this topic - because It's getting really in-polite and in-tollerant due to touch to painful internal problems of people/countries.


Thibault de Vassal    (2008-09-29 14:43:33)
To moderate or not to moderate

"in-polite and in-tollerant" ? This discussion seems interesting, I don't see the point to close/erase it (yet), but if several other participants agree on this, I'll do it.


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-29 14:49:24)
By the way

Denis, your deductive abilities are very impressive but offten wrong. Russian and ukrainian are my native languages. I can speak english, french and german as well. >>I understand that he must be an immigrant from former Soviet Union.>> You are wrong. >>Very probably he is not well adopted in German society - and is treated as person of "lesser quality".>> I'm Prof. at Heidelberg Uni and do not feel "lesser quality" here or in France where i worked before :) Germany and France (at least the scientific community) are not the rasist countries. I wish you feel similar at Ukraine!


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-29 17:51:37)
Iouri Basiliev

"Russian and ukrainian are my native languages" So you must know the simple fact that more than 70% of Crimea people consider Russian as their native language. For East and South of Ukraine we also can see that majority of people speak Russian. So saying about "artEficial introduction" of Russian in Ukraine, about "talking about country, not the region" - you demonstrate your own (one-eye blind) vision or it was adopted during your life in "not the raSist countries" or (what I believe is the most probable case) maybe both? as to you professorship - in Ukraine we already saw one "professor of Columbian University" of enormously great merits and honors but ... without a diploma - Roman Zvarych. http://www.pravda.com.ua/en/news/2005/7/23/543.htm his named turned into nickname for those from outside who being dressed up with different "titles & honors" like a Christmas trees teaches us Ukrainians how to live.


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-29 21:13:05)
Denis

U have not only extraordinary deductive abilities but great imagination. I have nothing against russian language. Moreover, Pushkin and Lermontov are my favourite poets. Lesya Ukrainka and Kotljarevsky are the greatest ukrainian poets imho. Communists (like you?) 70 years artIficially (i've no spell checker) propagate russian in Ukraine. It were only 10% of ukrainian schools at that time. Nowadays the situation is opposite. If you living in Ukraine, spend some time to learn ukrainian if you are able. When i sad i'll accept ANY decision by voting majority i mean i'll accept. I hate persons like Zvarych and another ProFFesors. My Ph.D. has been defended in USSR (not US) in deep 1989.


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-29 22:49:32)
Second language

Ok. Revenons (retournons?) a nos moutons. The question is more difficult that one can expect. What would be a reaction of the French government if some one would proposed German as the second language in Alsace, where significant % of people speaks German???


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-29 23:27:26)
Iouri Basiliev

"Communists 70 years artIficially propagate russian in Ukraine. It were only 10% of ukrainian schools at that time. Nowadays the situation is opposite." so you think it is good to use communist methods - making LESS than 10% of russian language schools? "If you living in Ukraine, spend some time to learn ukrainian if you are able." oh thanks for such a deep, wise and unexpected advice. and this is my advice for you - to read "European Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" this will also ansver your Alsace issue.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-29 23:39:40)
Alsace

"What would be a reaction of the French government if some one would proposed German as the second language in Alsace, where significant % of people speaks German??? " yeah! of course! recognition by these governments of Cosovo independence actually means that they agree that local territories could be separated from the country by voting of people and gain independence - so THIS IS THE ANSWER to your question! whatever they think Alsace people can vote for independance!


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-29 23:53:18)
Second language

<<you think it is good to use communist methods - making LESS than 10% of russian language schools>> where i sad this? as i told your imagination is very turbulent :) Russians are not "National Minorities", as Choukchas or Eskimos. If you so lazy to learn Ukrainian or you hate Ukraine, why you are living there? Go to Siberia or Chechen and hate Ukraine from there. You, probably, gifted by russian TV :)


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-29 23:53:53)
By the way ...

Just look for the folowing document in the internret (I hope that unlike spellchecker you DO HAVE Internet): Regional an minority languages and cultures in France are outlaws addressed to : The committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights CESCR


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-30 00:08:25)
Iouri Basiliev

"<<you think it is good to use communist methods - making LESS than 10% of russian language schools>> where i sad this?" you just became bold enough to order me what to do: "Nowadays the situation is opposite. If you living in Ukraine, spend some time to learn ukrainian if you are able" and this is actuall means that you are considering that this is right (and good of course). so stop making a fool of you and just read what you are saying. I live in Central Ukraine where Russian speaking people are minority - so I don't say that Russian should be introduced here. But in East and South and 100% in Crimea Russian WILL BE introduced by people - whatever you(foreigner/traitor/ agent of western influence) want/order/dislike.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-30 00:18:12)
Iouri Basiliev

"If you so lazy to learn Ukrainian or you hate Ukraine, why you are living there? " I, my mother (Ukrainian) and my relatives lived here, live and will be living - whatever aliens like you want/like/dislike! "Go to Siberia or Chechen and hate Ukraine from there. You, probably, gifted by russian TV :) " who you think you are to issue orders to me here in Ukraine? relax! live where you a$$ find warm place - in Europe and don't make stupid orders and advices to us Ukrainians. you are - the last person we will be listetning to. you didn't find your place in Ukraine or Russia - so go away to your western "friends".


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-30 00:30:57)
Lermontov s Pushkinim vmeste

"Russians are not "National Minorities", as Choukchas or Eskimos" Readers already understood that you HATE Russians (with all you references to Pushkin and Lermontov) that you don't even give them right to be nationality (and thus minority). and this hate - is the only thing that speaks in you.


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-30 00:38:12)
Denis Ivanchenkov

You are so dumb. How i can hate russians? My mother is russian. Half of my family are russians. I hate commi KGB ideology, making people stupid like you.


Denis Ivanchenkov    (2008-09-30 01:45:44)
Iouri Basiliev

"How i can hate russians?" if you (Heidelberg professor) are incapable to understand this (or more probably pretend that you don't understand) tomorrow I'll explain you.


Iouri Basiliev    (2008-09-30 09:36:24)
Denis Ivanchenkov

It is interesting and very exciting to know something new about yourself. I'm waiting of your explanations. But, please, take away russian TV's propaganda anti-orange rhetoric. Just your deep reasoning.


Alexis Bromo    (2008-09-30 20:25:32)
Iouri and Denis

Friends, please be polite to each other :)


Alexis Bromo    (2008-09-30 20:35:43)
interesting

Two men speak english at french site about russian/ukrainian language... it's amazing!


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-10-01 06:26:42)
re and...?

Thanks Denis, I just found out now, that was "Buenos Dias" written in Cyrillic.


Normajean Yates    (2008-10-19 10:16:47)
official language of britain

The answers to these might interest those who do not know: What is/are the: 1. National Anthem of UK, 2. Official lanuage(s) of UK, 3-10. questions 1-2 for England, scotland, Wales, N. Ireland resp.

The answers to all these questions is - NONE. [and of course, no Constitution also :)] So people from other countries might consider if these things - official language, national anthem, ... - are really necessary!


Normajean Yates    (2008-10-19 10:22:08)
has the U-word been mentioned yet?

I've not read the thread carefully because it will give me a headache :) but my, some people here need their blood pressure checked! Some people said something in this thread about lesser people or something...

So has the word 'Untermenschen' been used yet? >> I have NOT used it, only mentioned it. Use/mention distinction. Or - for those who speak lisp, the distnction between (quote x) and x . <<

[german word, german brackets..]


Alexis Bromo    (2008-10-19 16:18:20)
Normajean

I wrote not about foreign people. I told about citizens of Ukraine. Most of them speaks russian. But it is not national language.


Normajean Yates    (2008-10-22 06:18:35)
Alexis Bromo

And I wrote about citizens of britain. Most of them speak english. But it is not national language. Because there is no national language of britain.


Normajean Yates    (2008-10-22 06:28:03)
Denis Ivanchenkov - Alsace

Though I generally agre with Denis's drift on this thread; but -

He brought up the example of Alsace. I think Alcase *has* special status, though I have forgotten the details. Thibault can perhaps confirm this... [english wikipedia doesnt mention any special status - maybe I am confusing it with some other region...]


Rodolfo d Ettorre    (2008-10-22 08:08:51)
Alzazsia

There is some informazione here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Moselle


Normajean Yates    (2008-10-24 00:39:28)
thanks Rodolfo

Thanks for the link!

It (en-wikip. on Alsace) is rather badly organised e.g. Alsace or Alsace-Lorraine don't have a prominent link to there, etc.

It doesnt mention any special status on official languages for Alsace-Moselle.. but hell, english-wikipedia is not God :) Specially, on politically controversial issues it is mainly trash...