Repeated draw offers

  

Repeated draw offers


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Garvin Gray    (2020-12-06)
Repeated draw offers

I have noted over quite a period of time where players complain that their opponents keep offering draw after draw after draw.

At this point in time, the only avenue to try and get this stopped is to press 'call referee' and complain to Thibault.

ICCF has a different solution to this matter and I believe it should be incorporated here:

If a player offers a draw in a single game, and that draw offer is declined by the opponent, the server will incapacitate the player's ability to make a second draw offer until at least 10 more moves have been made, with one exception.

If the opponent offers a draw during a player's 10-move count (that is, within 10 moves subsequent to the player's having made a draw offer), then the player's 10-move count is terminated at that time such that the player can again offer a draw with any move. This "10-move" rule does not include claims of a draw related to 3-position repetition, 7-piece tablebase claims, 50-move rule claims, or adjudication-related claims.


Rotom Monotua    (2020-12-06 15:29:44)
Repeated draw offers

Sounds like a nice solution for a irritating, bad habit.


Thibault de Vassal    (2020-12-11 20:57:43)
Repeated draw offers

Well, I took some time to think (again) about this problem. Not an obvious one.

Of course, the best option seem to be to let players to tell the server (and their opponent, or not) what they want to read / receive [draw offers], whenever they want. All other solutions seem to be a part of this solution.

By the way, players could tell the server (and their opponent, or not) what they want to read / receive [private messages], whenever they want.

I must say that all choices [any change, or no change at all] seem not satisfying to me for now... It is a real and complex ethical question to me.


Garvin Gray    (2020-12-12 05:04:25)
Repeated draw offers

I do not see any ethical questions here.

The issue is rather simple. Are repeated draw offers a nuisance? The clear answer would be yes to this.

And so, what is a solution?

Currently, if a player is being annoyed/distracted by the repeated draw offers, they have to click 'call referee' and then formally complain about the draw offers.

Most people are not aware of this option, or do not complain. This does not mean that they are off put by it, but instead either just put up with it, which then advantages the draw offerer, or they walk away from the site and play elsewhere.

The solution I have offered allows the draw offer, but stops repeated draw offers.

I would say in all the games that have been played on this site, that out of all those games, the percentage of games that have ended in a draw after a player has offered two or more draws in a row to be so small as to not be measurable.

As a side note - As this is an ICCF rule, this means that the majority of ICCF National Federations voted to implement this rule.

Clearly, those NF's thought the issue was serious enough to implement this rule years ago, with refinements along the way to the current rule quoted here.

Since the rule has been in place and not overturned, I think the fact that many National Federations and players want this rule should be a clear clue that the issue is serious and counter measures should be put in place, as suggested with my rule offer.


Thibault de Vassal    (2020-12-15 19:58:03)
Repeated draw offers

As a first step, I added a warning message when offering a draw. Let's see if there is any effect before to envisage your solution.


Daniel Parmet    (2020-12-17 03:26:33)
Repeated draw offers

Not sure there is any downside at all to what Garvin is proposing. That said, I don't really find draw offers annoying. I did just win a game where I got a draw every ten moves for all 90 moves of the game before he resigned.


Stephane Legrand    (2020-12-22 21:05:43)
Repeated draw offers

I find draw offers annoying when a player offers draw at every move...
I would keep that player's name! I don't play tournament with this player anymore...


Thibault de Vassal    (2021-11-29 02:09:11)
Repeated draw offers

After a case a repeated draw offers, I thought that the rule should evolve from:

"Also, no player will make draw offers repeatedly, particularly serveral times in a row. Doing so may lead to instantly lose the game, and/or being immediately and permanently banned."

... to ...

"Also, no player will make draw offers repeatedly, particularly serveral times in a row. Doing so may lead to get a limited access to the server (until to get a response if necessary) then to lose the game, finally to get permanently banned if this behaviour does not stop."

Reason is that it seems not so obvious for certain players to remember all draw offers while playing quite slowly many many games. Also, they may not receive some warning messages.


Ilmars Cirulis    (2021-11-29 09:05:22)
Repeated draw offers

Yes, sometimes I avoid offering draw because I can't remember if I haven't already done that.

(thumbs up)


Garvin Gray    (2021-11-29 09:20:46)
Repeated draw offers

My first post on this matter already contained a very good solution for this issue that would never result in any bans:

ICCF has a different solution to this matter and I believe it should be incorporated here:

If a player offers a draw in a single game, and that draw offer is declined by the opponent, the server will incapacitate the player's ability to make a second draw offer until at least 10 more moves have been made, with one exception.

If the opponent offers a draw during a player's 10-move count (that is, within 10 moves subsequent to the player's having made a draw offer), then the player's 10-move count is terminated at that time such that the player can again offer a draw with any move. This "10-move" rule does not include claims of a draw related to 3-position repetition, 7-piece tablebase claims, 50-move rule claims, or adjudication-related claims.


Juri Eintalu    (2021-11-29 11:18:31)
Repeated draw offers

First, what you can do, is to make changes to the server program so that the game log or the notation of the game will show, when and who has made draw offers. Sometimes, when the game is finished, the player later wants to know, when did the opponent offer a draw.


Juri Eintalu    (2021-11-29 11:28:45)
Repeated draw offers

The easiest rule is that a player can make maximally three draw offers per game. It is easy to remember that you have made 1, 2, or 3 draw offers. It is easier to program such a rule on the server.


Thibault de Vassal    (2021-11-29 18:03:06)
Repeated draw offers

Juri, it seems it's not obvious for several players at least. Garvin's proposition is probably best, avoiding any human intervention, I agree with that. Maybe I can do something according to player's taste, just like for private messages in games.


Juri Eintalu    (2021-11-29 18:54:29)
Repeated draw offers

Thibault, I have made some general strategic remarks, but I am not going to study the details of the proposition. I am incompetent to say anything detailed about FICGS rules.


Thibault de Vassal    (2021-12-01 02:12:36)
Repeated draw offers

I just updated the process and rules... let's give a try to this new version (without any human intervention on the result of the game):

"Also, no player will make draw offers repeatedly, particularly several times in a row. Doing so may lead to get blocked by your opponents, finally to get a limited access to the server (until to solve the problem)."

It is now possible to report then block draw offers (at least the main message & popup) just like it is possible with private messages in games. Then it shouldn't be annoying anymore.


Jan Zidu    (2022-09-19 03:37:50)
Repeated draw offers

In any case, I would introduce a rule that each player has the right to offer the opponent a draw repeatedly, but may not do so more than once every 10 moves. If the player follows this rule, he must not be sanctioned in any way. Does the introduction of such a rule present any problem?


Ilmars Cirulis    (2022-10-09 14:31:17)
Repeated draw offers

What if the warning message (about draw offers too often) told one when the last draw offer were made? That would be much more useful, imho.

Cheers