RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED

  

Back to forum


Juri Eintalu    (2022-07-10)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

It seems that Russia and Belarus have not been suspended from the international chess federation ICCF.

The ICCF Extraordinary Congress tried to suspend Russian and Belarus federations.

Online voting was carried on 27 April - 09 May 2022.

https://www.iccf.com/congresses

ICCF homepage does not provide a clear result. I do not see it. The link to THAT Congress disappeared today.

The downloadable table of the voting results does not show in detail, what country made what decision.

An excerpt from the results:

***

EC 2022-003 Suspend the Russian Federation - Void if EC 2022-001 is Defeated

For 33, Against 10, Abstain 14
(I calculate that FOR: 58%)

Amendment of ICCF Statute Article 17, EC 2022-01 required 2/3 votes. The result was:

For 34, Against 10, Abstain 13.
I calculate that FOR: 60% which is less than the required 2/3 or 67%.

***

It seems that the ICCF did not succeed to change its Statute so as to allow the suspension of Russia and Belarus based on majority voting.

Unfortunately, in my homeland, there is no information available on how our representative voted (if he voted) and based on what considerations. The national federation also has not responded to my question sent officially through the ICCF server. I also do not see any relevant news on the national federation's website.


Thibault de Vassal    (2022-07-11 01:00:06)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

Thanks for information. To be continued...


Juri Eintalu    (2022-07-13 09:45:36)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

The ICCF Statutes webpage provides a new Statute, valid from 9th May 2022.

www.iccf.com/message?message=449

Article 17 contains a new sentence now:

"The Executive Board is empowered by Congress to propose suspension or dismissal of member federations for non-financial reasons."

Thus, the ICCF has also made a decision to suspend Russia and Belarus.

Thus, it seems that the ICCF Congress has calculated as follows:

34/(34 + 13) = 34/47 = 0.72 = 72%

It means that the "abstained" 13 voters have not been taken into account.


But who voted how, who remained neutral, who was missing, etc.?

Article 12 says the following:

"Amendments to the statutes require a vote of the general assembly, called the Congress, and a majority of two thirds of the members present or represented."

However, that Extraordinary Congress was online.

Finally, the downloadable table has other pages providing more detailed information. Thus, there is information that Estonian representative Jüri Kuusik did not "attend" the online congress.

The meanings of the terms "present", "represented", "attended", and "abstained" have remained unclear, which makes the manipulations possible.

Clarity is missing around that issue and on the ICCF homepage.


Garvin Gray    (2022-08-22 03:43:25)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

As I have just attended the in person 2022 ICCF Congress, and only just seen this thread, I will clarify some matters.

It is correct that before the matter of the situation in Ukraine, the ICCF statutes only allowed for a Member Federation to be suspended for financial reasons, and this could only be done at Congress ie by majority vote of the Federations.

Therefore, with the situation in Ukraine, the ICCF EB set up the Online Congress and proposals were arranged to deal with that situation. All proposals were designed only to last until the 2022 Congress in Glasgow ie they would be reviewed at the 2022 Congress and the Member Federations would vote again on whether to keep any sanctions, or not.

At the Extraordinary Congress- The Member Federations decided to vote to suspend both Russia and Belarus Federations, but not the individual players.

First of all, there needed to be a vote to change the Statutes, this is what required the 2/3 vote. And the count for the 2/3's is a simple 2/3 majority- For - Against, abstains don't count.

If abstains were to count, then the term would be an absolute majority. That is not the case here. It is a simple 2/3 majority to change the Statutes.

As is pointed out, 'However, that EC was online.' Hence why the Statues proposals vote was first.

If it did not receive the 2/3 simple majority and the Member Federations did not approve the change to allowing Member Federations to be suspended for non financial reasons, then all the other proposals would be null and void, no further voting would take place on the other proposals and no action could be taken against Russia or Belarus until the 2022 in person Congress in Glasgow.

And at the 2022 Congress, this suspension of the Russian and Belarus Federations were continued until the 2023 ICCF Congress in Amsterdam.


Juri Eintalu    (2023-03-30 11:51:52)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

I wrote an open letter to the Estonian Correspondence Chess Federation that I am leaving this organization.

https://eintalu.medium.com/an-open-letter-to-the-estonian-correspondence-chess-federation-4d7edcb8fe5c


Thibault de Vassal    (2023-03-30 21:52:40)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

Extract from your open letter:

"Second, this decision was discriminatory and selective. For example, US correspondence chess players were not punished for the fact that the US had started wars in Afghanistan, Iraq or Serbia.


Well, many can agree that some US representatives should be judged for what looks like obvious lies but isn't it a bit short to compare Russia's war in Ukraine to what happened in Afghanistan, Iraq or Serbia? (that are quite different cases by the way, involving different groups of countries)

It seems that most russians in Russia still support this war ("special op") while everyone ignored the truth about those weapons in Irak (in example). Any context should be analyzed in depth IMHO. Would you accept to play chess with players from a country that just completely destroyed yours and who think at -randomly- 80% probability that it was a good thing (and incidentally that you are a nazi)?

Here, players from Russia & Belarus can still play chess under a neutral flag partly because I can't filter players geographically (I know russians who left their country because they are against this war) but this remain a complex question that depends on many things.


Juri Eintalu    (2023-03-31 09:09:17)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

To Thibault de Vassal:

Thank you for taking a look at my open letter on Medium.

“... isn’t it a bit short to compare Russia’s war in Ukraine to what happened in Afghanistan, Iraq or Serbia? (that are quite different cases by the way, involving different groups of countries)”

If country A starts a war against country B, the relevant question is whether that war is justified or unjustified, whether it is a war of aggression or, instead, the attacker has the right to do so.

By now, it is a piece of common knowledge that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were wars of aggression.

Chess organisations FIDE and ICCF have punished Russian chess organisations for the Russian invasion of Ukraine while not punishing the US chess organisations for the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. FIDE and ICCF have not presented any comprehensive analyses about how justified or unjustified some of those wars are. You are turning the burden of proof around and accusing me of not delivering the arguments that FIDE and ICCF had to present.

“It seems that most russians in Russia still support this war (“special op”) while everyone ignored the truth about those weapons in Irak (in example). Any context should be analysed in depth IMHO.”

Excuse me, but I cannot follow what you are trying to say.

You argue that any context should be analysed in-depth, but you fail to hint at why Russia should be punished and the US should not. Your only fact mentioned, “everyone ignored the truth about those weapons in Irak”, remains mysterious. I do not understand in what context you are saying this.

We know already for ten years that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction.

Concerning your other remarks, I make only one reply. We know that there are saliently some Nazis in Ukraine.

Here, on the chess forum, I technically cannot answer in detail to your several remarks that, in my mind, are all somewhat inexact or vague.


Thibault de Vassal    (2023-03-31 16:56:17)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

Hello Juri,

Thanks for taking time to develop...

I agree that justification is the (never easy) key.

After thinking about it, I may also agree that it is possible in a certain measure to compare russians ignorance during Ukraine's war to americans ignorance during Iraq's war. A difference is that Russia's government acts like a dictator (russians are condemned as soon as they show against this war)

I do agree that US should probably be punished for some wars (at least for the the announced reasons and what actually happened - number of civil deaths, etc.), by an International Court of Justice.

On this topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_the_Iraq_War

I quite agree that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were aggressions 'stricto sensu', but...

- I cannot agree that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were similar to what happens in Ukraine. The aim was probably partly oil-related but AFAIK it was not to introduce separatism, it was not to annex territories, it was not to spread a dictatorship, it was not to force people to change their culture & national identity (but yes, this may happen in Ukraine just like it happens in Russia, for the same reasons)...

- Saddam Hussein was a true & violent dictator who was probably a reason enough to move his regime, just like it is the case with talibans, IMHO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein

It seems to me that it is very possible to justify to fight &/or to remove some dictatorships.

Russia should obviously be punished for many reasons:

- Annexion of territories (that has no nothing to do with their nazis justifications... their argument is mainly "history").
- Numerous crimes of war (that will be documented)

Finally, there are nazis quite everywhere, even in France. The question is "how many" and what do they do? The Russia's argument does not try to be subtle or precise on this matter, it just looks like "europeans turned nazi cause Europe helps Ukraine", right?


Thibault de Vassal    (2023-03-31 20:52:24)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

Few questions more, just curious:

1- Would you like your country (Estonia, I guess) to rejoin Russia's federation (under Putin's regime)?

2- What would you think if russian speaking people in Estonia wanted to cut it in two parts, to make an independant republic that will obviously join Russia's federation?

3- What would you think if Russia's argument to make war to Estonia (destroying many cities) was that there are nazis in Estonia who fight separatists? (I guess that there are nazis in Estonia just like everywhere... and obviously they would be quite happy to fight against separatists)


Juri Eintalu    (2023-03-31 21:13:22)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

You are quoting me wrongly. And you are doing it intentionally.

Moreover, I was talking about whether FIDE and ICCF decisions were justified. My argument was that these decisions applied some important principles discriminatively, selectively.

Suddenly, you started to talk about whether the Russian invasion of Ukraine was justified. You also started to talk about war crimes.

Let me remind that the ICCF started a process of banning the Russian team just a few days after the Russian invasion began.Thus, your arguments about what happened months later might be pretty irrelevant.

Let me also remind you that you decided to talk ONLY about Russian war crimes in Ukraine. You dismissed the US war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, the war crimes committed during the Donbas civil war (both Ukraine and the separatists committed war crimes there), and, finally, you also dismissed the war crimes committed by Ukraine in the present war.

And now, before I answered to your mess, you managed to attack me personally.

My answer to your provocative questions is that if the political regime will go absolutely crazy, then I will not defend that regime against anyone. But I still hope that it will not go absolutely crazy.

Anyway, I will not discuss with you anymore, because you are systematically ignoring important relevant facts and you regularly change the context of discussion.


Thibault de Vassal    (2023-03-31 22:52:44)
RUSSIA AND BELARUS NOT SUSPENDED?

Sorry if I quoted you wrongly... Could you specify?

Yes, first you were talking about wether FIDE and ICCF decisions were justified, but our discussion went on the global case:

you said (quote):

"If country A starts a war against country B, the relevant question is whether that war is justified or unjustified, whether it is a war of aggression or, instead, the attacker has the right to do so. "

"You argue that any context should be analysed in-depth, but you fail to hint at why Russia should be punished and the US should not."

So let's separate discussions: one is about FIDE/ICCF decisions, the other one is about war & its justifications.

About ICCF, I am not aware of a process to ban the russian team just after the invasion, I'm not sure what it means as well... does this mean that the russian team should have played under a neutral banner (that could be understandable), or does this mean that the whole team (every player) was banned?

I have no problem to talk about US war crimes in these countries... if you read my post again, there is a link to a page that deals with it.

I have no problem to talk about war crimes commited by Ukraine as well. There were war crimes for sure. There are proofs of that.

Questions remain: how many, for what aim... Everything will be analyzed.

My additional questions were not provocative, these are real questions to better understand your point of view. But I did not understand your answer (or you did not answer ?!)

Feel free to continue the discussion, you're welcome.