Problem with new groups for the chess WC

  

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Thibault de Vassal    (2012-12-02)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Hello all,

As I mentioned in the chat bar, there is a problem to build new groups as I usually do a few weeks after the start of the chess championship...

Players who entered the waiting list for replacements are:

AUT Rada, Hannes 2465
ISR Blinchevsky, Alexander 2206
ITA Bonoldi, Fabio 2049
DEU Wolf, Bernd 2113
ARG Reboredo, Daniel 1941
ITA Fabris, Alberto 1995
ITA Piantadosi, Angelo 1319
UKR Simashkevitch, Mykola 1987
DEU Lommler, Jan Peter 1860
BEL Pepermans, Toon 2000
USA Batal, Jean 1960
GBR Hancock, Sarah 1614
USA Johnson, Bobby 2412
GBR Burrows, Nick 1935
UKR Malish, Dmitriy 1146
COL Rey, Eduardo 1800
FRA Satonnet, Patrick 1351
GBR Soszynski, Marek 2143
POL Nig, Piotr 2028
USA Davis, Mark 1192
FRA Estieu, Frederick 1383
USA Lovelace, Randy 1504
CAN Deline, Ralph 2179
UKR Bromo, Alexis 1129
BIH Dautovic, Dzenan 1653
USA Knighton, Robert 1950


4 players rated 1500-1800 already replaced those who were to lose their games on time... As a result, we have many players rated 1900-2100 and too few with low ratings. Of course players rated 2400+ will not like to play in regular groups.

Right now I could create only one group with a similar rating average, nothing more but I would have to choose a few players only, which is not a great solution. I tried several combinations, M groups and so on.

I know that a few players would prefer not to see these new groups created and right now I see no solution good enough to create it.

If I cannot find any idea, I think there won't be new groups this time.

Any suggestion?


Robert Knighton    (2012-12-02 04:33:02)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

"Round-robin tournaments are groups of 7, 9, 11 or 13 players, there may be double round-robin tournaments in case of groups of less than 7 players". . . The first group might be pushing it a little bit with Alexander being a bit low rated compared to the other two... but the rest looks ok to me. What do you think?

3 Man Double Round Robin
AUT Rada, Hannes 2465
USA Johnson, Bobby 2412
ISR Blinchevsky, Alexander 2206

3 Man Double Round Robin
CAN Deline, Ralph 2179
GBR Soszynski, Marek 2143
DEU Wolf, Bernd 2113

11 Man Round Robin
ITA Bonoldi, Fabio 2049
POL Nig, Piotr 2028
BEL Pepermans, Toon 2000
ITA Fabris, Alberto 1995
UKR Simashkevitch, Mykola 1987
USA Batal, Jean 1960
USA Knighton, Robert 1950
ARG Reboredo, Daniel 1941
GBR Burrows, Nick 1935
DEU Lommler, Jan Peter 1860
COL Rey, Eduardo 1800

3 Man Double Round Robin
BIH Dautovic, Dzenan 1653
GBR Hancock, Sarah 1614
USA Lovelace, Randy 1504

3 Man Double Round Robin
FRA Estieu, Frederick 1383
FRA Satonnet, Patrick 1351
ITA Piantadosi, Angelo 1319

3 Man Double Round Robin
USA Davis, Mark 1192
UKR Malish, Dmitriy 1146
UKR Bromo, Alexis 1129


Don Groves    (2012-12-02 04:50:44)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

On the entry page for the Chess WCH is written:

deadline : 2012 november 1st

Since new entries are still being accepted, it appears that "deadline" is an incorrect word here. Is there a real deadline and, if so, when is it?


Wayne Lowrance    (2012-12-02 04:54:10)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Robert, I do not think it is fair to insert Alexander with those too strong players. It is a problem. I can understands Thibault's problem now. Well what ever he decides is oki with me. but I would really oppose suggest divergent ratings in a group. In fact Rada has a problem he is by too high for even being that 3 group. I just do not know enough about these things to contribute.


Robert Knighton    (2012-12-02 05:03:13)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

You could do this but.. I don't know how good it would be. I would be willing to play outside my rating if that would help. I'm still new to FICGS so my rating isn't a very good comparison with other players here yet.

2 Man Double Round Robin
AUT Rada, Hannes 2465
USA Johnson, Bobby 2412


4 Man Double Round Robin
ISR Blinchevsky, Alexander 2206
CAN Deline, Ralph 2179
GBR Soszynski, Marek 2143
DEU Wolf, Bernd 2113


Stephane Legrand    (2012-12-02 09:12:23)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

why not:

as you always do :

2 Man Double Round Robin
AUT Rada, Hannes 2465
USA Johnson, Bobby 2412

and after
24 players in 3 groups of 8 players with 123123123...


Don Groves    (2012-12-02 11:48:49)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

OK, I understand accepting players past the deadline to replace those who have dropped out. But what is the rationale for adding new groups after the deadline?


Thibault de Vassal    (2012-12-02 12:45:42)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Robert/Stephane, it is also mentioned in the WCH rules: "Groups are built grading all players by rating and distributing them to obtain similar elo averages."

By the way all similar groups must have the same number of players, otherwise it would be impossible to be fair when building the next round tournaments.

@Don: Yes, the deadline does not change but there are a few lines in "My messages" that explain that it is still possible to enter the waiting list (without guarantee to be included in a tournament).


Garvin Gray    (2012-12-02 12:48:21)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

I agree with Don. Whilst not liking it, I understand for norm purposes and 'fairer' qualification chances between different groups, replacements are required.

I really do hope that the replacements are of similar rating to the player who forfeited their games.

But I certainly do not agree with adding new groups or players. All these players have entered the waiting list because they entered after the deadline.

If they get a run, they have been fortunate. To those who miss out, the message should be enter on time next time to guarantee your spot.

So Thibault, I think you are complicating matters way too much. Make the replacements to counteract the forfeits and that is it.


Nick Burrows    (2012-12-02 13:09:34)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

I think people are getting a bit too uptight!

Allowing new players hardly affects anyone's chances of progressing in the tournament, yet it allows the late players who didn't have the opportunity to log in a chance to play in the most enjoyable of all tournaments on Ficgs.


Garvin Gray    (2012-12-02 13:51:13)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Nick- Did not have the oppportunity???? The waiting list for the wch is open for a month, sometimes even more. Any player who wants to enter can do so at any stage between when the waiting list opens and when it closes. So they have 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for four or more weeks to enter.

It is not like the entry period for the waiting list is only open for a couple of days.

The only people who could claim they did not have much opportunity to enter were those who only just joined the site before the waiting list closed.

As for why some of us might be 'getting too uptight'. Those who entered by the deadline have been seeded correctly as per the rules. Which means for some they have been placed in M groups with all those players being rated over 2200.

To now see the possibility of having a weak M group, which means those who have entered by the deadline have now been substantially disadvantaged compared to those who entered late.

I really do not care at all for your 'we are getting too uptight' argument Nick.

Those who respond have every right to debate the pros and cons of what is being proposed.

If you have something to actually add to this issue in terms of finding an acceptable answer for Thibault's conundrum, or wish to try and point out why his solution is not a good one, then feel free to add something to the debate and thread.

A few of us have pointed issues with Thibault's idea and our disagreement with the whole approach. That is our right to do so.

None of us have been abusive, derogatory or demeaning of anyone else, even if we disagree with the other viewpoints.

If I am an example of getting too uptight, in your opinion, so be it, but I do not like at all when players are able to enter late and even more when they look like, or are, getting an advantage they would not have gotten if they entered before the deadline.


Nick Burrows    (2012-12-02 14:04:13)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

I did not have the opportunity to enter, because I did not log on for the month it was open, as did the other players who did not enter.

I have not been "abusive, derogatory or demeaning" - lighten up! I believe I have every right in a public forum to express my perspective also, and that is that it is a game, some people take it too seriously, and that all those who were allowed to enter the waiting list, simply want the thrill of enjoying the game. That is all.


Robert Knighton    (2012-12-02 14:45:47)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

My computer broke down on me about 2 1/2 months ago. I have been without a computer until a couple weeks ago.

I could not have signed up on time :/

And I'd be willing to bet most late signups were for lack of knowledge of the tournaments available, how they work, or that they exist at all. This site is not exactly new user friendly. Getting games is confusing until you understand the unique system being used here. Same goes for finding and entering tournaments.

If I cant get in then so be it; no hard feelings, but if I can get the chance to play, that would be wonderful. What I really want is the chance to play stronger opponents. I'm still stuck in the sub 2k rating bands until more of my games finish.


Don Groves    (2012-12-03 03:24:28)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

To clarify my position on this matter: I was not implying I don't like adding new groups after the deadline, I was simply asking for the rationale for doing so. My view is that we are all better off if these kinds of things are written in the rules so there are no surprises of this sort.


Alexander Blinchevsky    (2012-12-03 06:55:41)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Wayne wrote: "I do not think it is fair to insert Alexander with those too strong players."
Actually I like to play people stronger than me, so the suggested 3-man group will be very exciting for me.
Any decision will be understandable :)


Robert Knighton    (2012-12-03 17:57:26)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

any decision on this yet?

imo Do the best you can. Get as many people in as possible. include as many as you can and the ones you cant include just have to wait for the next opportunity.

I certainly don't want to hold anyone else back just because it might not be "fair" for them to get in but not me.

"Right now I could create only one group with a similar rating average, nothing more but I would have to choose a few players only, which is not a great solution"

not great but still better than nothing at all.

I would like to hear what your thoughts are on this after hearing everyone's opinions.


Thibault de Vassal    (2012-12-05 14:20:36)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Well, at the end I think that best is to do the same than in the previous editions. If I can build only one group then be it.

A few players will be picked up randomly to have a similar rating average. At least, as Garvin says, there will be a consequence for all players who entered the waiting list after the deadline, which seems fair.

The new group(s) will be created tomorrow.


Wayne Lowrance    (2012-12-05 18:27:37)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Robert Knighton. You dont understand me. I was saying it is unfair for the two strong player having to compete against a much weaker player. It would have cost him point 4 sure.
BTW I must say. I very much agree with Don Groves opinions he has stated. here. Chess is a very structure event. Touch & move example. Thib's rules are just wrong ! period.I have said with rules in place he has a very difficult task. I said I would support him in his decision. But if it were left up to me. I would simply state, Late and your out ! NO excuses. that is just the way it should be. Sorry if I am offending anyone, it certainly is NOT my intention
Wayne


Thibault de Vassal    (2012-12-05 19:02:36)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Hi Wayne,

Of course this is a very coherent opinion... but there are reasons why I created these new groups since the very first championship:

There may be several players who cannot be included into tournaments when I create them (because of the number of players per tournament). To exclude nobody, I had to wait for a few players to enter it... but of course there was always too few or too many of them, with too high or too low ratings. So I decided that the prioriy was to start as many tournaments as possible to make it as competitive as possible.


Wayne Lowrance    (2012-12-05 20:07:58)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Okey Dokey. You have examined the topic carefully and have experienced the task of grouping players. I have not. But looking out of the jail cell of my thoughts I do not agree. It just seems like it s/b possible to just have a cut off date and no exceptions.
I guess your problem is in your opinion too large a grouping or too small a grouping, keeping rating gradient to less that 100 . I would rather play in a group even if only 2 or 3 players qualified in my rating group. Thinking hard as I generate this response I begin to appreciate more of your problem. Hey what the heck do I know anyhow. ::) Wayne


Robert Knighton    (2012-12-05 21:34:02)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Wayne Lowrance said: "Robert Knighton. You dont understand me. I was saying it is unfair for the two strong player having to compete against a much weaker player. It would have cost him point 4 sure. "

Yeah I see what you mean there. Even if I could compete at that level then those players at a higher rating would suffer for it.

Also, no offense taken. We can peacefully agree to disagree on issues and perhaps we can settle it with a game one day :)

Seems like there should be a provisional tournament that new players coming to FICGS enter into automatically to determine rating, but that is a discussion for another place.


Wayne Lowrance    (2012-12-05 22:36:06)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

yes, I am sort of a wildcat person, so I would not expect all to agree with me and all have my respect.
I do understand problems to new comers Entering into a new rating system. Advancing is difficult. Here at this site all are playing Centaur chess. Which means in the end you have to beat the program input to the Centaur. I wish I knew of a way to help you. because of illness I resigned all my current games causing a loss of rating from 2500 to 2280 Wayne


Wayne Lowrance    (2012-12-05 22:39:39)
Problem with new groups for the chess WC

Oppps, it was my intent to delete that last part cause it has no bearing on this topic, Sorry Wayne