Is Marshall attack

  

Is Marshall attack ....


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Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-11-30)
Is Marshall attack ....

... good enough for a win on high level correspondence chess??? You can make your own mind with a look at 4 games of WCH_CANDIDATES_FINAL_000002 (# 23018, 23019, 23020, 23021) where Black played an unusual defence which could have fundamental importance of judgement this opening!


Thibault de Vassal    (2008-11-30 13:56:19)
Caire - Utesch

Hi Wolfgang, you probably mean #23018, 23020, 23022, 23024 .. Interesting games, waiting for the next moves :)


Ulrich Imbeck    (2008-11-30 14:27:33)
Not Main Line

12. g3 Bd6 13. Re1 Bf5 14. d4 Qd7 is not 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Bf5 14. Nd2 Qd7


Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-11-30 15:46:05)
Not Main Line

You are right, but main line is a draw anyway!


Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-11-30 15:55:08)
Caire - Utesch

Hi Thibault, it seems that actual positions are too complicated for you! ;)


Thibault de Vassal    (2008-11-30 17:15:01)
Caire - Utesch

Well, after a few seconds on each board, it seems obvious that White [François] can't lose any of these games -which surprised me- so waiting for your manoeuvres to get the draw in the first 2 games.


Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-11-30 18:48:14)
Caire - Utesch

Thibault, in accordance to your rules I have to avoid any loss in all games of the match. So I decided to play defences with Black where the risk is lower, because general endgame ideas are more important than tactical play with many figures.


Thibault de Vassal    (2008-11-30 20:13:50)
Caire - Utesch

The strategy may work :)


Hannes Rada    (2008-11-30 20:20:20)
Good for white !?

Currently I am playing with white a decisive game at the Austria championship against the Marshall 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 O-O 8.c3 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 c6 12.d4 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Re4 g5 16.Qf1 Qh5 17.Nd2 Bf5 18.f3 Nf6 19.Qg2 Nxe4 20.Nxe4 Qg6 21.g4 Bxe4 22.fxe4 Rae8 23.Bc2 Qh6 24.e5 Bxe5 25.dxe5 Rxe5 26.Bd2 Qe6 27.Bb3 Qe7 28.Qf2 c5 29.Re1 c4 30.Rxe5 Qxe5 31.Bd1 h6 32.Qe3 Re8 33.Qxe5 Rxe5 34.Bf3 f5 35.gxf5 Rxf5 36.Bb7 * The endgame 2 bishops vs 1 Rook + Pawn looks good for white. Black did not have any attacking changes in this game and white quite a comfortable game. However I am not quite sure if white can win it.


Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-11-30 21:01:56)
Good for white !?

Hannes, with best play on both sides White will have always a small advantage in this opening I think. Mostly not enough. For your game all the best - may be your opponent has missed the best defence.


Hannes Rada    (2008-11-30 21:43:01)
Attack ?

You are right Wolfang. But I thought, that you played these so called attack for winning purposes :-) If black want's or must win, I think that Sicilian gives better chances.


Andrew Stephenson    (2008-12-01 08:15:20)
Marshall to win..

At cc no real chance for a black win but not easy for white to get much chance either. Although I dont know if many cc players want to go through the extended end game suffering Wolfgang seems to enjoy :)15...a5!? looks like a simpler less masochistic way to get the draw rather than Wolfgangs 15...Rae8 Still why Caire plays exactly the same variation of the Marshall in all 4 white games????? - against a higher rated opponent it makes no match sense at all. I suppose your not going to lose games on time playing the same variation:):)


Marc Lacrosse    (2008-12-01 08:45:01)
To Andrew

"(...)why Caire plays exactly the same variation of the Marshall in all 4 white games????? - against a higher rated opponent it makes no match sense at all. I suppose your not going to lose games on time playing the same variation:)"

Hi Andrew in my FICGS__CHESS__WCH_QUARTER_FINAL_3__000005 playing the exact same variation in my four black games was the key to win the match: all four were drawn whereas I managed to win 3.5/4 in my four white games (with four variations of one of these silly sideline sicilians you seem not to praise too much).

... what is the optimal strategy for these matches remains to be determined. The "all-draws-favors-higher-rating" rule is very interesting. I like it very much.

Marc


Andrew Stephenson    (2008-12-01 15:34:03)
cant argue...

..with your results Marc. However the current champion won FICGS with exactly the strategy I favour and exactly the opposite to your strategy. So thats powerful evidence in favour of the varying openings approach. Well done on winning your match - lets see how far you get with your strategy. As for these side line sicilians I never called them silly Marc your being over sensitive. I thought that it was easy to equalise against them and get a draw at cc. I still believe that and proved it in our game. However I do think your opponent (as black) was playing ambitiously to win! Now thats a different story .....


Andrew Stephenson    (2008-12-01 15:37:40)
cant argue...

..with your results Marc. However the current champion won FICGS with exactly the strategy I favour and exactly the opposite to your strategy. So thats powerful evidence in favour of the varying openings approach. Well done on winning your match - lets see how far you get with your strategy. As for these side line sicilians I never called them silly Marc your being over sensitive. I thought that it was easy to equalise against them and get a draw at cc. I still believe that and proved it in our game. However I do think your opponent (as black) was playing ambitiously to win! Now thats a different story .....


Thibault de Vassal    (2008-12-01 15:39:31)
Why not both strategies ?

IMO both strategies may be the best one, according to the context, the opponent and other personal factors at a given time. It will be always interesting to think about it in any context, I like it :)


Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-12-01 18:53:45)
Why not both strategies ?

I have been surprised also about my opponent's strategy - 4 games the same opening - but it can work sometimes. I don't know whether another strategy would have been better? I think Francois has been surprised also about my answer 1.e4 e5 four times. In the past I prefered 1.e4 c5 mostly. The openings beside Marshall attack for the other games has been very well prepared by my opponent.


Ulrich Imbeck    (2008-12-01 20:26:26)
15...a5!?

"15...a5!? looks like a simpler less masochistic way to get the draw rather than Wolfgangs 15...Rae8" means 12. g3 Bd6 13. Re1 Bf5 14. d4 Qd7 15.Le3 a5


Hannes Rada    (2008-12-01 20:58:47)
Marshall Defense

And the conclusion is: This opening should be renamed as Marshall Defense :-)


Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-12-01 21:31:30)
15...a5!?

May be easier! Are there known any games? My idea was it to show, that white endgame ressources (neither by material nor by development) are not big enough for a win! Would be a fundamental investigation of this opening's worth. But Hannes is right - better to name it Marshall defence.


Andrew Stephenson    (2008-12-01 22:09:55)
15...a5!?

I dont know of any games but when I was following the game and before 15 ...Rae8 I started investigating this move and the more I looked at it the more I liked it - its a very annoying move for white at just the right moment. However Wolfgangs approach seemed to work I just would not have had the courage to enter those endgames


Wolfgang Utesch    (2008-12-01 22:17:10)
Endgame knowledge ...

... (with more than 6 pieces) is one of the last differences of todays high level correspondence chess!