Future penalties for games lost on time

  

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Garvin Gray    (2016-11-30)
Future penalties for games lost on time

I know this topic comes up for discussion from time to time, but seeing the results from Rapid A 192, I think a more thorough discussion needs to take place about what should be done about players who lose multiple games on time.

I know on ICCF, they have very strict rules in this matter, and I believe that FICGS should follow the same procedure.

Players should be made aware before entering a tournament that they are expected to complete all their games, not just time out some of their games without consequence.

If players do not want to continue their games and feel that it is ok to let their games time out, then FICGS should take the position that their services are no longer required on this site for a stated period.

The ICCF rules should be followed in this matter.


Herbert Kruse    (2016-11-30 03:01:53)
Future penalties for games lost on time

if the rules here are that u can lose on time they should stay so

u cannot change the rules after beginning a game

and i dont lose on time ever (or lose ever ;) )


Garvin Gray    (2016-11-30 08:33:54)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Herbert Kruse- Policies and procedures can be changed at any point in time as situations change, or as events occur.

Where in my post did I say that I was changing the rules after the beginning the game. In fact, I think you would find that the game had ended. That was the point.

The rule I was bringing up is what to do in the future for players who lose games on time. ICCF is generally seen as the standard practice for most rules and procedures, and their policies on this matter is very clear.

So if their policy was to be adopted here, it would start from (insert date), which would hopefully be January 1st 2017.


Peter W. Anderson    (2016-11-30 09:19:39)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Yes, too many losses on time.

I generally tend to give people the benefit of the doubt re personal circumstances, health etc but a few observations:

- I have yet to see anyone lose on time in a winning position

- I have yet to see anyone lose on time when they had a level game in a match or tournament they could win

- It only takes a minute to resign a game if you really cannot continue: it is only good manners.


Herbert Kruse    (2016-11-30 11:11:02)
Future penalties for games lost on time

if you ban every player who loses on time, there will be less and less players here, but i want ficgs to have a big number of members


Garvin Gray    (2016-11-30 11:16:28)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Since I have referred to the ICCF policies on the matters of players losing on time, I should directly quote their policy:

It is under section 5 of Code of Conduct:

Types of disciplinary action available are as follows:
(i) Formal Written Warning – for breaches in behaviour incompatible with ICCF statutes, principles, or rules. Continuing or repeated misbehaviour will result in (ii) being implemented
(ii) Disciplinary Action with Penalty/Sanctions – for serious or recurring breaches in behaviour
incompatible with ICCF statutes, principles, and/or rules. Immediate penalties/sanctions should be imposed, the degree of which should be related to the severity of the misdemeanour.
The following scale of penalties/sanctions should be used:
(a) A serious behavioural issue, e.g. silent/unacceptable withdrawal from a tournament, unacceptable, or abusive behaviour to players/officials/ICCF as a first offence – ban from all international CC tournaments and activities for a period of 2 years, from the date of decision.
(b) A repeated serious behavioural issue, e.g., repeated silent/ unacceptable withdrawal from a tournament, repeated abusive behaviour to players/officials/ICCF – ban from all international CC tournaments and activities for a period of 5 years, from the date of the latest decision.
(c) Outrageous behaviour or further repeated behavioural issue, e.g., theft, belligerent action towards ICCF or any of its officials, assault, etc. – ban from all international CC tournaments and activities for life duration. Appeal for remission of sentence is available after 10 years.
(d) Extremely slow play in a clearly lost position is not proper behaviour in CC play, and is subject to a warning from the TD, and will result in disciplinary action if it continues or is repeated in other games.
When dealing with disciplinary matters and considering penalties/sanctions, care should be taken to ensure consistency and those penalties are commensurate with the “crime” committed.
In all cases of disciplinary action, an individual has a basic right to express his/her case, with reasoning, before a decision is taken by an official/tournament director or tournament office, etc.


Herbert Kruse    (2016-11-30 11:41:59)
Future penalties for games lost on time

thats just crazy

chess rules are rules, u can use it as u want

ICCF is old fashion and therefore has not the best players


Ilmars Cirulis    (2016-11-30 11:48:21)
Future penalties for games lost on time

For defence of Duttagupta:

He has finished all five games in the tournament and lost only two on the time.

I have played 20 games with him and everything was okay (despite him losing 10 games), also.

So I have all reasons to believe that he has some IRL problems.


Ilmars Cirulis    (2016-11-30 11:52:07)
Future penalties for games lost on time

I am against any penalties for losing on time or slow play, too.


Garvin Gray    (2016-11-30 14:04:30)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Ilmars, did you actually bother to read the ICCF sections I quoted? Or did you just say, I am against any penalties as a blanket statement and stuff the rest?

If you had read the ICCF rules, in all cases of disciplinary action, an individual has a basic right to express his/her case, with reasoning, before a decision is taken by an official/tournament director or tournament office, etc.

So any player in 'question' would be given the opportunity to answer why they lost their games on time and it would be up to the Tournament Committee, or Thibault alone to decide on what action to take.

And I do not believe it is appropriate to discuss individual players when discussing this rule. If we start mentioning individual players, then the potential for a lot of hurt feelings, defamation and arguments can ensue.

People will just start going through everyone's records who might be a 'suspect'. That serves no purpose except to upset everyone.

The topic is a simple one. At least it is to me.

Peter Anderson defined the issue well.


Ilmars Cirulis    (2016-11-30 15:07:51)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Against any penalties for using allowed time in any manner (including allowing it to run out completely).

Sorry for any misunderstandings.


Herbert Kruse    (2016-11-30 15:51:42)
Future penalties for games lost on time

if u start a game u know the rules, so it must stay that way

if u want an adjustment u can ask Thibault

no need to do any more bureaucracy


Herbert Kruse    (2016-11-30 15:53:22)
Future penalties for games lost on time

11. 5. Adjudications

In some cases, the game continues but the result is obvious.

If time control is superior to 1 day and if a player doesn't want to resign (or accept draw) and obviously last the game, his opponent may report to referee a first time. If the player takes 30 days more to finish the game, his opponent may call referee another time, then the game will be adjudicated. An analysis submitted by a player should contain sufficient information so that no doubt is possible. This may include a sequence of moves, but in some circumstances it may be sufficient to claim a win or a draw on the basis of material or positional advantage. Final decision belongs to referee.


Scott Nichols    (2016-12-02 18:28:58)
Future penalties for games lost on time

First loss on time, suspension for 3 months. Second loss on time, banishment for life. With the long time controls here, there is NO good reason to lose on time.


Thibault de Vassal    (2016-12-02 22:06:28)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Hi all,

On dead man defence, Herbert said it all and as far as I can see, this rule works (when used, of course)!

On losses on time, I'm still not sure of what rule is best but I'm quite sure that simple rules are often best. However, I guess that rules could be more incitative about finishing games even without sanctions ("threat is stronger than execution") I'm not sure how efficient it could be on a free website though, FICGS context is not ICCF context. So I'm open to any change but I'm still not favourable to any suspension or banishment (that could lead to even more games lost on time). Also, I do know that life events could lead to this, I do know that there are many good reasons to lose on time, unfortunately :/


David Fierry Fraillon    (2016-12-03 09:12:28)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Well .... how long takes a referee decision ?
If it is less than a few days it could be better than using banishement.
You may just have to fix the level of difference in rules : + 10 .... +15 ....Just have to keep in mind that in our game an oponent mistakes can happen


Thibault de Vassal    (2016-12-03 21:15:23)
Future penalties for games lost on time

According to the rule in such cases, there must be an adjudication 30 days at most after the first call to the referee. I must say that it is very rare that I have to act after this period (actually, when a player calls the referee, his opponent usually resigns a few hours/days after that, which is a good sign that this system works well IMO).


David Fierry Fraillon    (2016-12-04 07:24:53)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Ok it can be very long then ...
I am not happy with banishment solution ... i guess the idea is to have a lot of players ... and more.
IF you look at some rating evolution you will see that some player just stop corresponding chess and are back few months later and sometimes more ...
I will do it myself as soon as i will finish my games because i have to prepare myself to normal chess ...
So i think it is normal for many reason to leave corresponding chess for a few months and be back ... i think also that it is normal to resign if you can ... but as Thibault wrote you can find many reason to not be able to do it .... By the way : Thibault, can you solve the trick of creating a new account when a player is banished ? I have only two solution in mind : reducing the maximal time allowed to one move to 30 (i do not like it because i use it sometimes when i am on the X9th move ... :-) ) and reducing time for adjudication ...


Thibault de Vassal    (2016-12-04 19:32:26)
Future penalties for games lost on time

I think I solved it as much as possible :) Anyway, as far as I know, players who registered again under a fake name generally stopped to play even faster (due to a lower rating and lack of motivation, I guess) There's a kind of natural selection due to the fact that we play with our real name.


David Fierry Fraillon    (2016-12-04 21:11:08)
Future penalties for games lost on time

i do agree ...

megalomany of chess players .... :-)


Garvin Gray    (2017-01-05 01:10:02)
Future penalties for games lost on time

Returning to this issue:

Ficgs already has a policy on this issue from its rules. It is covered in 11.6:

Any player who forfeits (by resignation or silent withdrawal) his games in an equal or winning position, without giving an explanation to referee in a rated chess tournament could lose his other games in the tournament, get a limited access to the server and couldn't enter waiting lists anymore during a period of 2 months, at the referee's discretion.


Thibault de Vassal    (2017-01-05 01:32:48)
Future penalties for games lost on time

That's right. Thanks Garvin for noticing it :)


Scott Nichols    (2017-01-06 01:11:10)
Future penalties for games lost on time

In a fairly short game #93472 it looks like black just gave the game to white. Usually this would go unnoticed. But, the white player and I have a gentelmanly bet on the outcome. he got four free points. I think they should be taken away and the black player should suffer a penalty for collusion.


Herbert Kruse    (2017-01-06 17:03:49)
Future penalties for games lost on time

only if "in a rated chess tournament"

other games are private matter